Monday, November 5, 2007

Fahrenheit 451 Fishbowl 136-165-period 5

166 comments:

jordanh said...

Well, guys I'll start by saying i love the ending!! What did you guys think?

Tylerg! said...

first i hate u, but the ending was too, like pirates of the carribean three, it is just unfufilling

jordanh said...

how was it unfufilling, tyler? i found the ending to be symbolic and metaphorical in that what comes around goes around.

mattf said...

Was there symbolism of everybody dying in the end?

Tylerg! said...

jordanh, it was to a sense, but it was just abrupt and not enough details

Tylerg! said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
maddisonm said...

I think the ending was very abrubt. I think that there could of been a way to end the book to show that the society fell apart, and was not just bombed.

alexf said...

mattf-I think there was kind of a symbolism of everybody dying in the end. I think it shows that there will be a whole new start and maybe society will even get it right this time!! Did anyone think it was ironic that the war was pretty much meaningless throughout the book, only to have it kill everyone except Montag

mattf said...

What about how scared the government is about looking bad, where they had to kill an innocent person to cover up the escape of Montag? Does any government in the qorld do this?

maddieh said...

Okay. My question is about the quote on page 165. The quote basically talks about a tree and healing nations. Why do you guys think Bradbury used this quote so close to the end of the story??

jordanh said...

mattf- the symbolism in everybody dying shows that what goes around comes around. the society is filled with hate and lust, and that came back to them. this reminds me of the treaty of versilles after WWI and how we hated germany, and they came back to haunt us in WWII

whitneys said...

tyler and jordan - I have to agree with both of you. I am not quite sure I like the ending yet because it was simple and unfulfilling, but also there is the sense of hope and I know that there is symbolic meaning behind that I really couldn't understand. Jordan, what symbolism did you see?

Ryad said...

maddisonm- if anybody survived the bombing do you think it could have changed thier mind about the society? Maybe it showed that they could start that city over again and it would be different.

mattf said...

Alexf- Yes, i did think it was ironic that the war killed everyone in the end. I laughed at first, and then drew a connection to Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

mitchl. said...

i really don't like all the books with cliff hangers for ending, it just doesn't sum up the book well and I just can't stand it. but i do think that the rest of the book was good.

Tylerg! said...

no, jordanh, in WWI, the U.S. wanted to establish peace, it was France and Britain who wanted to punish Germany and then they came and got back at France

jordanh said...

maddieh- i think he was kind of opening up a curtain for us to see what the world around this society was like, but i haven't read the quote closely...

alexf said...

maddisonm- I think that there was kind of a symbolism with everyone dying from the bomb becasue everyone thought that they would never die. The war was easy and we would win without casulties, yet the war is what ended up killing everyone! It shows how nieve their society was

maddisonm said...

If the community had not been bombed, how long do you think the society could have survived?

maddieh said...

Alex- To go off what you said about everyone starting over again, it's just like the pheonix that the man talked about that was born from his ashes everytime he killed himself. That was a major similie to the soceity in this book, they will just have to find a way to rise from their own ashes.

katyj said...

the ending of a book is supposed to provide a sense of closure and Bradbury did not give any sense of closure. it was like a summary with a cliffhanger ending, it leaves you wanting to know what happened after that.

jordanh said...

that is correct tyler, but we still ended up bandwagoning with the rest of the allies, so we didn't do anything about it or challenge the sytem which is reminicent of this society

jordanh said...

whitney, i found the symbolism in the death of the culture- i described it above in further detail...

alexf said...

maddieh- Do you think that the tree had anything to do with books? AFter all, paper is made from trees!! If anyone read the very very end, it said that Montag is a company that makes paper and FAber is a type of pencil. Are these things just coincidental or were they purposly placed there? IF so, why would Bradbury spend so much time just connecting to everything that had to do with books?

maddisonm said...

ryad- I think that if people survived the bombing, which i am sure they did, then it would give them a long time to really think about what their life has been. I think, like you said they could rebuild the society in a different way.

mattf said...

The death of the culture and the death of one man just before. Was it ironic that the man's government killed him before another government was going to?

maddieh said...

Alex- Is that in the afterword or something? Because that's really interesting...

jordanh said...

madisonm- do you really believe anybody in the town survived the bombing?

alexf said...

maddieh- Exactally! I hadn't even thought about the phoenix. So, do you think that the society will start over again and maybe get it right this time, or do you think that it will take them multiple tries? After all, there are still people that weren't killed that "know books are bad" Could they ever stop this trend of burning boooks?

Tylerg! said...

ok jordanh, but we did this because wilson wanted to establish a league of nations and france and britains said they wouldnt join it if we didnt join them in punishing germany

maddisonm said...

who bombed the city?

mattf said...

Alexf- Was that in the afterword or the coda?

hannahl said...

Has anyone ever read "All the King's Horses" by Kurt Vonnegut? It reminds me of the chess thing.

alexf said...

FOR ALL/MAddieh-!!! Oh, in the back of the book, if you have it, at the end of the afterword it tells about the significance of the naming of Faber and Montag!!

Laurenc said...

Hi everyone, sorry i'm late
just woke up from a nap (home sick today)

Katyj - I for one really don't like it when books are left open ended. Especially in this case. So many questions are left to be answered that you keep on wishing there was more. Sure it gives you room to imagine but sometimes its better to get at least some closer

melissaz said...

matttf- I don't understand what tou mean? It was one of my questions to begin with, who really did bomb their society? Did their government kill them or was it another society?

Ryad said...

alexf- I think that the fact that Montag and Fabers name are a comnpany that makes paper and a pencil are signifigant. A lot of authors do that. J.K. Rowling has reason behind almost all her character's names.

jordanh said...

tyler g-so what though? who said that we had to comply? do you think we really needed a league of nations. in fact, we weren't even in the league of nations that we formed because by the time we could have joined, we had a new president that didn't put us in...

Tylerg! said...

i completely agree with you laurenc

katyj said...

Just like in Mrs. Cornils social studies class i think that even the most innocent things connect to everything else and have a deeper meaning, so i think that the comment about Montag being a paper company and Faber being a pencil is a metaphor for how much Faber shaped the way Montag thinks, lke writing on the book of his life.

maddieh said...

Alex- I think that the only way for the society to change how they did things is to totally change their perspectives. It's hard to say if they will go back to burning books but now would be a good time to try and change the world when everyone is so vunerable and their memories are so fresh.

jordanh said...

that's a great point katyj. i can't stop connecting!

Tylerg! said...

no, thats is true jordan, but at that time a league of nations was really important to the president and most of the other government, and when they say that they want to do something they'll do whatever they say to get the league. So yes no one forced them but it was important and they forced themselves

Laurenc said...

Alexf - I think the society is in for a lot of hardship. Since the phoenix keeps on dying and being reborn I think the same thing will happen to the city. It makes me think about what all the old proffesors said about how they were not special or better then anyone even though they probably could say that now when they survived the bombing and can help rebuild society

alexf said...

ryad- I also think that it is significant that they names relate to books, but really, (not to criticize) why would the reader be like, "Oh FAber is a type of pencil!" I don't think that ayone really knows that. Why would the author take so much time to reasearch this stuff? (Not that i disagree with you, i was jsut wondering :)

whitneys said...

alexf and maddie - I loved the pheonix and think it has SOO much symbolism! I mean when the pheonix is reborn he doesn't carry any knowledge that he had from his previous life, he begins a totally new life. So I think it means that the society will be completely be reborn because it was destroyed by fire, the thing that kept it going. And it will be new and good. However, I kinda also believe that it will burn again, and thus continuing the circle just like the pheonix did.

mattf said...

Messilaz- I meant that the government killed the one innocent man moments before their society got bombed. Was that ironic or symbolism?

maddisonm said...

Does anyone think that our community could ever turn out like this authors right about?

whitneys said...

ok...I thought it was really interesting how Montag felt so safe in the water and so fearful on the land. What do you guys think the symbolism behind this is?

melissaz said...

Like I have heard a few of you already say, I think that reason for the death of basically everyone was to show the death of all remnats of the society. The whole idea and structure of the society is gone now. And like they used fire and Montag used bombs to kill Beatty, it was used to "make the society better" as most would have said, but now that is what destroyed them.

mitchl. said...

I agree with everyone who said that Faber's name meaning a pencil or something kind of told Montag what to do , but also Montag was needed for Faber to get his thoughts down and Montsg helped faber challenge the system as well.

jordanh said...

tylerg- that's a valid point, but i thoink that i would agree with you if the US would have stood up and joined forces with germany, but the US-although they did disagree- decided not to challenge the sytem. i think of the US at that time like Faber- he may have had ideas, but he dind't act upon them.

Ryad said...

alex- the author might have done it just for personal reasons. If you take the time to look (not that many people do) you can find all sorts of things about books. It's kind of like when your talking with your friends and you have inside jokes.

alexf said...

laurenc/maddieh- I think that you both are totally right! They are so volunerable right now, after all, so many people died! But, what if because they were so volunerable, they wanted to go back to something set in stone! (Burning books) HAs this ever happened in history? I'm trying to think of a case, but can't come up with one. Does anyone know when "the phoenix death" has occured in out past?

Laurenc said...

about the league of nations, I just can't stop thinking it is so ironic that OUR president set up the league yet our senate didn't agree to join it. It goes to show you that just because people are members of the same country, it doesn't mean they have to agree on everything

which leads me to a thought i had about the bombing, do you think the government was split on the issue and so perhaps the military branch bombed the city?

maddisonm said...

sorry I ment to say what the authors write about :)

jordanh said...

does anybody else have an opinion on me and tyler's arguement???

melissaz said...

Jordanh- I do think that there were those few that really survived. I think that all that did survive will end up finding each other and really discussing what had happened, what their society was really like. Then they will build up a society to leave those mistakes behind.

Tylerg! said...

no jordanh, in history we learned the u.s. didnt want to join war, they wanted neutrality and peace, thats why they formed the league of nations, and thats why they wanted the treaty not to go through because it wasnt promoting peace, but it does remind me of faber a little

katyj said...

The pheonix was amazing, because it had somuch symbolism. When the pheonix is reborn, it is always stronger, more knowledgeable, and more beautiful than before, just like human society.

mitchl. said...

that is a very good point laurenc and that could be a possiblity so I think that is really what happened.

maddieh said...

Whitney- I agree but one of the professors mentioned in the book how every few years more and more people start to agree with them and start to take in knowledge about books. Maybe that will help stop the "pheonix cycle" but you never know. Since the book is a portrait of the world as Bradbury saw it, I think his hope is that people paying attention and changing how the react with the rest of the world and effectively stop the "pheonix cycle."

alexf said...

ryad- Ok, thanks! I get it now! I was just so confused with why he would take the time to think of that! THanks.

whitneys- i also think that the phoenix can be a blessing and a curse. You can improve you society infinitly, but then again, you can't always remember what happened in the past, and therefore might repeat your mistakes. This is like how history repeats itself

jordanh said...

OK< i misinturperted you previous comment, melissaz. there probably were a few survivors, but i thought that you meant that the majority survived. sorry. :)

Ryad said...

I agree with laurenc- it is ironic that our president gave up so much to get the league of nations but never joined. It was pretty stupid.

mattf said...

I found it! To me it seems that he (the author Ray Bradbury) made it as a joke or didn't really realize what he was doing. To me its sounds like it was supposed to be funny or ironic, but it may bo coincidential. This reminds me of Forrest Gump and Bubba Gump Shrip CO.

jordanh said...

tylerg- everything you said is ture, but do you really think thtat we foloowed though with all of that to the extent that we were capable?

Tylerg! said...

no, i dont, but we werent a perfect nation just like the nation in fareinheit 451, they are trying for perfection, but they make mistakes no matter what

Laurenc said...

tylerg - i agree with you that the treaty was for peace. I mean, everyone thought WWI was the War to End All Wars and they thought the treaty would help secure that. The original plan for the league had good intentions like Faber but it did turn away from its base of ideals which makes you wonder if Faber will stay the course

maddisonm said...

laurenc- that is an interesting point. Maybe it was rebellion towards the society. This book never really creates a definite government, it is open for interpretation. I personally think that the government only does things to keep the people from thinking. If someone did just take a moment, like Montag did to realize what the community really is, I think there would be much more rebellion.

whitneys said...

maddisonm - I definately think that our soceity could and is actually heading in this direction. I was watching TV the other day and there was this commercial about a product that would limit the amount of time one watched TV or played on the computer. The woman who was promoting it was like, now I don't have to be the bad mom and technology takes care of her children. With this new invention, the children don't have to learn self-control when it was time to turn off the TV, technology now controlled what they did.

maddieh said...

Alex/Katy- I think that maybe one example of a "pheonix death" in our world could be the downfalls of societies like the Roman Empire or something like that. Although the Roman Empire never really recovered, it's legacy remained stronger and powerful enough to remain to this day as something we learn from and talk about.

jordanh said...

tylerg- i agree that the US at that time wasn't perfect, and no government can be, but ican't believe that the 451 government is trying to achieve perfection. heck, they are at war.

melissaz said...

laruenc- I might have to disagree, I think that, yes, the story leaves a lot open ended but it answeres enough so that we can make enough assumptions. We aren't totally left in the dark like some stories do. Also, we can almost make an educated guess of what will happen, by the people left behind. But I don't mean to change your opinion, this is a very open-ended area that everyone has their own opinion. Just putting in my 2 cents.

Tylerg! said...

war solves problems and i know some people will be mad, but it does, it establishes power and power give intimidation which alows you to do more and do what you want and the nation in 451 wanted this

whitneys said...

alexf - that is true! hmmm. So fire is destructive yet it can be comforting and bring life.

alexf said...

laurenc- I agree. I think that faber had great intentions, but he is an old man...no being byist but he's weak and he may be too scared. Who knows if he will really go to the printer. What if he didn't get out of his house fast enough and was killed by the bomb? Also, if Montag doesn't meet up with Faber, do you think that he will stay with the group of "book memorizers" or do you think he will go to accomplish what he set of to? As in, will he continue to plant books in firemen's houses, or will he committ to the group he is in now?

Laurenc said...

jordanh - I think the Farenheit 451 government WAS trying to obtain perfection or perhaps its more of absolute obedience from its people. I think the government if far from perfect but in the eyes of its people, it has to be. Reminds me of North Korea's situation a lot...

katyj said...

i have a question
What was the meaning of the mirror factory comment?

mattf said...

Laurenc- The treaty, except for the league of nations, was meant to harm Germany. Who had to take full blame for the war? Who had to pay war reparations? Who had to demilitarize? Who lost a lot of land? GERMANY!!!!!!

This tells me symbolically that maybe the society (Germany) may be taking revenge on another country (US, United Kingdom, France, other allies) for punishing it and literally trying to make it not be able to survive.

Ryad said...

tylerg- I agree. War does solve problems, it's just not alway the best way and i think it should be used as a last resort but it does solve problems.

Laurenc said...

melissaz - no problem! I can see your point as well

jordanh said...

tylerg- you would agree that some people will be mad, adn that is the minority we see in 451. People like Granger, Faber, and Montag are the "some people that will be mad". wuold you take sides with the 451 government or the few rebels??

alexf said...

whitneys- So in other words, the phoenix and the fire are very much alike. Just wondering, isn't a phoenix labeled to the firemen today? They both help and hurt! Fire cleanses yet destroys. Phoenixs start over, yet forget!

katyj said...

tylerg- arent there ways to establish power and solve problems without all the bloody mess and killing that war involves?

maddieh said...

Tyler- I do agree that war does give power but I don't think it's the best way to gain power. Nations want power and we just haven't found an official and total way to end the power struggle and end war. I think that the society in 451 is a lot like ours in that sense, where we don't know any better ways to end that fight over power.

Laurenc said...

mattf - that is how if became..to hurt Germany but the original intentions of president Wilson were peace between nations.

Tylerg! said...

thank you ryad, and i really do agree, it doesn't need to be used often and really shouldnt, but when others dont listen than war is a solution. Like theodore roosevelt, " speak softly and carry a big stick"

mitchl. said...

tyler, you are right about war and how it can solve things and establish power and intimidation, and i do agree with you.

whitneys said...

I REALLY WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS - okay so my favorite part of this book was when Granger talks about his grandpa's death and how he didn't miss him, but the the things he did. What do you think about this statement? Is it true that our actions create our identity and define us? let me know what you think...

mattf said...

Unfortunately, war does solve problems. Why can't we " Give Peace a Chance"?

maddisonm said...

whitneys- I have never herd of anything like that! That is strange. It is almost a reverse effect, we use technology, to stop technology, if that make sense! It seems like we are moving more and more away from T.V, and more towards trying to be outside and fit, but at the same time we are starting to get so many new "inventions" to make our every day like become easy. How easy can one person's life become? Do you know what i am saying?

Tylerg! said...

everyone i know that war is bad i dont like it, but no matter what you say it has helped when necessary to use

Ryad said...

jordan- I think it's hard to decide what side you would take until your put in your position. I think that we could all say that we would want to save the books but is it worth losing your family and everything you care about.

Laurenc said...

ALL - Just wondering something. I'm a pretty big fantasy novel reader so i was thinking about what I know about the phoenix and its also said that phoenix's have healing tears. Do you think this could apply to the city at all? Do the people have the power to help others but are choosing not to use it?

melissaz said...

mattf- That is a great point. I had never thought of that. I think it is a little of both. It's to almost prepare the audience for the death of the society but yet it almost seems ironic. I do think Bradbury knew what he was r=wrighting. But now that I think about it, there is a large difference between the 2. The society isn't "innocent" like the man. The society is almost the main problem and I could almost say that it needed to die in order to bring back the importance and the knowledge.The man was completely innocent and did not at all deserve to die.

mattf said...

TylerG- Really, All it has done is kill people.

alexf said...

maddieh- I disagree. I can see how after war people gain power, but during war, i think it's a waste of power. It just kind of shows off how much you have. I do agree, however, that we don't know any bbetter way to end than fight over power. I think that our society is struggling with that today. Should we have gone to Iraq or not? Personally, i don't think that the fighting about whether war is right or not will ever end! Its ironic how we fight over fighting! (if that makes sense!)

Laurenc said...

tylerg - I agree. War is a horrible thing but I don't think there is any way to stop it and it most certainly is necessary sometimes. I won't spout political stuff at you but I definately think some wars are very important and even help make countries safer

Ryad said...

Whitney- when you think about it you don't miss the actual person. You miss thier mind and their actions which in my opinion is what actually makes up the person. You don't miss the physical person you miss the idea of the person.

jordanh said...

War solves problems for just one side. I think that war is like two brothers that are mad at each other. Eventually, they'll ifight and both get bashed up. It's not like when we get into war that all of our problems are soloved. there are injured people, deaths, and veterans to deal with. I think that i agree with mattf- if we give peace a chance, what is the danger? why can't we solve our problems without all of the pain? call me a hippy, i don't care.
This is what i believe

Tylerg! said...

ryad, the reason people go to war is because they care about their country and they're willing to risk their lives to not only save their families, but save others too

mattf said...

Melissaz- I see what you are saying. But did the other society (or maybe the same one for that matter) see the need for the death of maybe a few innocents for the good of the world?

whitneys said...

maddisonm - You are exactly right about the whole life getting easier and easier. Soon life will get so easy for us that we won't have to THINK about anything that we are doing...it's so simple we just do it.

alexf said...

laurenc- I think that the phoenix symbloizes TONS OF THINGS. Great poing how the phoenix tears heal. So in other words, the phoenix helps by starting over and healing, yet it hurts when we forget. Like said before, it's a blessing and a curse

maddieh said...

Whitney- While I was reading that, I could help but think about it. It's such a strange perspective but I realize that many people do feel that way after someone dies. They are sad from all the things they didn't get to do or say together. In relation to 451, I think that quote is supposed to show how he mourns for how much they lost (books and experiences) from all the burning. He isn't sad that he has to hide and live in fear, he is sad that the rest of the world doesn't get to know all the feelings and things he knows. I think that is what Granger was trying to get across.

Tylerg! said...

jordanh, but sometimes peace doesn't work, sometimes in this case countries are just to stubborn, and you gotta blow em up

Laurenc said...

ryad - I agree. When my dog passed away at first I didn't really seem to cry as much as I thought I would but when I thought about all the times he wouldn't come up and lick my hand or I couldn't pet him any more then i started to cry a lot

melissaz said...

maddisonm- That is so interesting. Bradbury never really tells us what the government really is like. It is very open for interperiation. We have been making our own idea, but who knows, maybe the society had just established the rule and let it all go, or maybe they are "hover-crafts" watching every move making sure everything is running smoothly

katyj said...

tylerg- now i see your point. Especailly with WWII, which we havent studied yet, but i know alot about, war was the only way to end Hitler's regime and the rampant killing that was taking place in Germany. it is like how we are using technology to stop technology.

maddisonm said...

alexf- i agree! we watched a movie in S.S and a mam who had fought in a war said "no one wins in a war" I think that this is true, even if we "win" the war, we still lost the lives of men! War really is ironic.

mitchl. said...

wars really do splve thing because if there weren't wars, then who knows if there even would have been a U.S.A. or would it be the British colonies?

Ryad said...

Tylerg- Yes that is the reason but they run the risk of the war coming to their home. That's what happened to Montag.

mattf said...

On what the inner circle said... They said that because Montag ran, his life was saved. It reminded me of this saying:

Eagles may soar, but weasles don't get sucked into jet engines

alexf said...

melissaz- Great point. That's what i've been thinking. What if it isn't the government that did all this horrible stuff? Bradbury never mentioned the government and i think it is horrible that we automatically assume it's the gvmnt's fault. WHere did we get all these thoughts of every wrong society having a HORRIBLE government?

jordanh said...

tylerg- i have to disagree. why can't we solve problems by means that won't kill inoocent people. it's not so much the death of dictators and rival soldiers that i am passionate about, but the fact that we kill innocent people in the process bothers me. i can't support this. i agree with mattf

Tylerg! said...

i know, but the reason they go is to stop it from entering their country, ryad, so it is like they have to help their families and risk their lives

mattf said...

Tylerg- War doesn't solve problems. It just makes them procrastinate themselves. Like with Germany: WWi, WWII, some of the cold war. 3 WARS!!!

Laurenc said...

mitchl/katyj - I agree. The US wouldn't be free if not for war, Hitler may have killed millions of more people and could have probably ruled the world without war, and certain other society's would be living in fear and getting murdered in huge numbers if war hadn't intervened. It comes down to numbers in war, can we save more people then we lose? It isn't easy but think of all the poor children getting murdered by Hitler or by whoever else and tell me if you don't think we should have fought to save them

alexf said...

maddisonm- Exactally. WAr can be good and war can be bad. Why does society always "war" over "war"? It can both help (by setting things straings) and hurt (death). How can this relate to 451? The war hurt society by so much death, but helped because now they have a new start!

Ryad said...

jordanh- I don't like that innocent people get killed but if things don't get fixed (peace doesn't work when people are mad) riots can break out and a whole lot of innocent people get killed. It's a lose lose situation.

Tylerg! said...

jordanh, now in our day and age, their are spies so we can't be sure, the world trade cneter attacks occured because we let "innocent" people on the plane and look what happened. If we go to war we're there to kill and end violence so we can set peace. War establishes peace

alexf said...

ryad- i think that that is a great point. War is never good, yet it prevents other horrible things from happening

whitneys said...

mattf - We could give peace a chance, but I think that war is necessary in continueing life. I know that sounds really antipeace and cruel, but if you think about it; war creates destruction and death. but it forces things to rebuilt, and this rebuilding usually results in something better. I don't know exactly what I am saying, but I guess it is kinda like fire. It can destroy but also create life. What do you think? This is just a thought and I am open to your thoughts.

whitneys said...

mattf - We could give peace a chance, but I think that war is necessary in continueing life. I know that sounds really antipeace and cruel, but if you think about it; war creates destruction and death. but it forces things to rebuilt, and this rebuilding usually results in something better. I don't know exactly what I am saying, but I guess it is kinda like fire. It can destroy but also create life. What do you think? This is just a thought and I am open to your thoughts.

jordanh said...

ryad- would you say a bomb would kill more innocent people or a riot???

melissaz said...

laruenc and mattf- I learned that the US never signed the treaty. To create peace the 14 points was created to try and bring peace.

Laurenc said...

mattf - War isn't good and NOT ALL WARS have been for a good cause. I'll agree with you on that. Lots of things done in war are just horrible such as the nuclear bombing of Japan which killed millions in probably the worst way possible...

but I'm saying that there ARE wars that help people (read my earlier post)

Ryad said...

alex- YAY! I know that a lot of horrible things happen with war but I think in the long run it prevents even worse things from happening. YOU GOT MY POINT!

maddieh said...

Alex/Lauren/Anyone else in the Pheonix Conversation- Stephen (from the inner circle)quoted Lord of the Rings and basically it was saying that even when everything around them is dark and horrible, they have to keep going and "rise from the ashes". I found that really symbolic of the pheonix and their world that no matter how bad things get, some one had to hold on to hope that the world will learn and get better. That the world will "rise from the ashes".

katyj said...

whitney- your comment goes back to the pheonix in that every time it is destroyed it comes back stronger and better.

mattf said...

Tylerg- Are you sterotyping. What you are suggesting that everyone that fits certain descriptions is innocent or guilty. Also, thats what the Patriot Act was established for. It also violated many rights of the people.

maddisonm said...
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whitneys said...

maddieh - Oh I never thought of it that way. But that makes sense. Thanks!

maddisonm said...

melissaz- it is really weird!! maybe it is both the people and the government. Maybe there is no government, like you said, maybe it is just the people. Maybe it was just all these T.Vs and then people became glued. Maybe the governemt told the people that they don't need to think anymore, and books were bad, and nobody bothered to disagree.

maddisonm said...

melissaz- it is really weird!! maybe it is both the people and the government. Maybe there is no government, like you said, maybe it is just the people. Maybe it was just all these T.Vs and then people became glued. Maybe the governemt told the people that they don't need to think anymore, and books were bad, and nobody bothered to disagree.

jordanh said...

tylerg- yes the terrorists killed thousands of innocent people, but they did this to make us mad at Iraq-they don't care about iraq and they don't care about the US, so what better than to cause a war between us. we're doing what they want us to do-get distracted with iraq so they can keep oing-they're trying to give us more enemies.

melissaz said...

jordanh- That is a great point on war. Why don't we ever give peace a chance before heading sraight to war? I really like that point.

Ryad said...

jordanh- the bomb would cause a war in its self. People like revenge.

alexf said...

ryad- ha ha ha. That's what i've been trying to say for a while :) It's just like the phoenix and fire. War, the phoenix, and fire create a "new life", yet also destroy life. It's good, yet bad

Tylerg! said...

i understand that mattf, but if we start trusting everyone that they are innocent, then we let our guard down and other nations hat hate us, will try and get us. I dont trust everyone and i bet you dont, so we have to in order to prtect ourselves

Laurenc said...

maddieh - I agree. We have to rise when we fall. It reminds me of a quote from the movie memoirs of a geisha "Don't worry, we all fall sometimes. See this beautiful geisha over here? once when she was young, she tripped and fell off her wooden sandals"

It shows you that falling is inevitable but we can all get up and become greater then before the fall

Tylerg! said...

jordanh, tey are from iraq though so we dont know if there are more so thats one of the reasons we are at war, and they remind me kinda of the witches in macbeth

Ryad said...

alexf- That is so cool I never though of connecting the two things. The phoenex effect allows for good things to rise out of the distruction of war.

mattf said...
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Laurenc said...

jordanh - but is it okay to leave those people to be murdered in horrible ways? Do you know some of the things Saddam did to his OWN people?

jordanh said...

melissaz- thanks
ryad- i agree the bomb starts the war, but why do we have to bomb? why can't we just let people be? if somebody harms us, why do we have to do the same two wrongs dont' make a right.

katyj said...

Just a point about Jordans last point.
The terrorists attacked bcuz they were mad at us cuz we werent muslim, and they were in Afganistan not Iraq. Iraq was later.

whitneys said...

maddieh - I loved that quote too and totally agree with you! I think that is a message for us, that we have to always hope for better days and stand strong.

maddieh said...

Lauren- Thats a good point and it can really help give you hope for the society after the bomb and burning and all. And once again, I think that the pheonix is such an important symbol in this book.

Tylerg! said...

katyj, ya but iraquis and afghanastanis are still not u.s. citizens, so can we trust that it wont happen again... No

alexf said...

laurenc and maddieh- That reminds me of a song... it goes, "II'm not afraid to fall
it means i climbed up high
to fall is not to fail
you fail when you don't try
...if i get up i might fall back down again
so let's get up come on
If i get up i might fall back down again
yeah I might fall back down again
We'll just jump and see, even if it's the 20th time
we'll just jump and see if we can fly...

Ryad said...

jordan- people can say all those things that "Two wrongs don't make a right" but if your angry and you think that what you believe in you don't stop to think that maybe you're not doing the wrong thing. We should but most people don't.

jordanh said...

laurenc- i never said that i wnated the death of the 9/1 victims to be unpunished. the terrorists should be killed. but does iraq have to be. are they even affiliated thses days. they may have been in the past, but i don't think they are now.
tylerg- who said that the terrorists were affiliated with iraq?????

Laurenc said...

jordanh - okay but isn't the US helping Iraq? Didn't we help them to set up their own government and move on?

melissaz said...

mattf- If it was the same society, I don't think that they look at the community as individuals all combined together to make a society. They are trying to make the community not think and all be like robots of each other, that seems to be the purpose for the society. To eliminate the individual. So, if it was the personal society that caused this attack, I dont think they are looking at the individual. But that is a good point. I'm not sure how to answer if it was another nation. Another nation probably did see the death of a few innocent people ok to save a society. I hope I am understanding what you asked correctly.

Ryad said...

jordan- how can we attack a countries people but not the country?

Tylerg! said...

no one, but when you commit a crime do you stay where it happened, or do you flea to another place, i give you iraq and afghan, that is anoter reason why, i think so at least

mattf said...

Jordan- They were from, guess, EGYPT and SAUDI ARABIA.

whitneys said...

alexf - I LOVE THAT SONG!!!

maddisonm said...

ALL- In both 451 and the book Brave New World i am reading, i think that every society trys to reach social stability, and when that gets pushed to far it can never be a good thing! What do you guys think?

melissaz said...

Yeah alexf, Beatty even said that the community descided not to purchase books anymore. The government may not be as bad as we are making it out to be.

jordanh said...

laurenc-we help iraq yet we are at war with them????
tylerg- you flea to another place-iraq, and they get the war in their house

Laurenc said...

jordanh - we are trying to help their people become stable on their own

jordanh said...

laurenc-by going to war with them???

mattw said...

jordanh- actually, to best of my knowledge, we're actually fighting certain groups who are killing Iraqi citizens, but I'm not sure about how they feel about us, and it's unfair to claim you know. The sad truth is that the Middle East is destroying itself, and would do so even without our "help". But no, I don't think the terrorists had anything to do with Iraq, that's just happens to be were are centered. There's a line between helping somebody and doing things for them, and it's hard to decide what side of the line we are on.