ha i started it
I don't know about you guys, but I really liked this quote from page 121 when Montag says, "You always said, don't face a problem, burn it. Well, now I've done both. Good-bye, Captain."
I really enjoyed that quote too. It was very ironic.
I love that quote as well Morgant.it really makes you think about Montag and how he has suddenly become a much stronger person
I also had another question...this is a discussion starter...Who can you trust in this society? I mean, Mildred left, Beatty turned on Montag, and Montag's neighbor turned him in... So, who can you trust anymore?
My question is why did Montag burn Beatty? And on the same note, did Beatty really want to die??
lauren- he seems more ready to do what ever it takes to escape the prison of the society he is in
About the cocnverstaion in the inner circle:I think that Montag became a fireman because it was his calling. I think that the war is connected to Montag's war. He is fighting a brutal battel aginst the sytem that he lives. he is also fighting a war gainst imslef. after all, he used to be the very man who made the system work. this represents the hardships of challenging the system.
this chapter was pretty intense, it was like the climax squeezed into 40 pages. I think that Montag can really only trust himself until he finds someone else
ya, what did numb the legs, the dog and if so what does that symbolize
Morgant, I don't think Montag has anyone to trust other then Faber. It just shows you that society is so messed up that Montag has to just rely on himself to get things done. Reminds me of what Hannah said earlier this week in discussion about how one person can make a difference
Jordan- I agree. I have always seen a great connection to the war and Montag's struggles. The war is going on the same basic pattern as Montag's life is and it is also brought up everytime something big is about to happen.
that is a good point jordanh but i also think the war might be a whole group of peopel fighting that same battle
laurenc- I agree. Faber is lke the only person he can trust, and he doesn't really have any contact with him. I wonder where Montag will go because he doesn't have a house anymore.
i really think the war is kind of montags struggle, and as montag gets closer to finally making his own choices the bombing gets closer and closer to their city, so maybe when montag finally decides to choose his path their city will be struck
Leslie- I was wondering that too. What is the war actually about? Why and what are they fighting for?
Hey Maddie- that's really the qustion of the day. That's such an odd part in the book, but here is how i interputed it. Montag hasbeen doing what people have told im to do for years. He's different now, though. He's following his instinct and that is so contradictory to the world Bradbury describes. He is doing what he feels is right.And I think that Beatty wanted to die like Mildred did. He wanted to die because he wanted to be freed of his contradictory life-much like Mildred.
maddieh- great question!! Personally, I don't really think that Beatty wanted to die. I think that, like in most scenarios, people push and push the one with the weapon, but they usually don't have the guts to kill the person. I think that it just happened that Montag killed Beatty and in order to make himself feel better, he convinced himself that Beatty wanted to die. On the other hand, maybe he did...what doyou think?
but i still have to say, WHY is everyone else getting pulled to war if it's montags war?
Maddieh, I think Montag burned Beatty because he was so fed up with everything going on that he just couldn't take it anymore. Also with Beatty just screaming in his face that he was a damn fool..that would really make me mad.I think Beatty did want to die because I have a feeling he was ashamed about having to burn his friend's home and was probably a reader himself
morgant - I LOVED that quote too because it was totally rebelous! About your question on trust, I don't think that there really is trust in the society. I don't know that was just my thought because people really aren't able to think for themselves and you really can't trust a person unless you think about it and decide whether the person is trustworthy or not. And also, there really is no information that needs to be trusted to the majority of the people, so most people don't have to worry about trust.
tylerg- That's a good theory. That would be kind of cool in a way that Montag finally made his choice, then it is like.....I don't know...'decided'
Morgant- I think that Montag can only trust Faber. This is because Faber knows that they are fighting for the same cause, freedom in the society. Montag might also be able to trust strangers on the outside of the city.
Tyler- the numb legs represents the numbness of the society he lives in-and he realizes this for the first time.
I think beatty didn't want to die, if you have ever seen the sound of music, at the end, the dad slowly persuades ralf, the teenage boyfriend into giving him the weapon, so beatty may have been using the same tactics, he may have just been trying to confuse or trick montag
laurenc- I see what you are saying, but disagree. I think that Beatty didn't really want to die, he just enjoyed seeing people's houses and lives burn. Why do you think he wanted to die??
Anybody think that is ironic that Montag is foghting fire with fire?
whitney- that is very true. You can't just trust someone on the spot, it does take some time to see if you really can trust them...like you said.
what the girl just said in the middle - i forgot her name, sorry -but she said it was odd how montag said he was lucky how he only got hit on his knee - it could be worse. I went through a surgery over the summer, and it was more painful than any other thing I've ever done in my life, and I had to go through it four times, when I should have only gone thru it once.I thought I had it so bad and I could feed off pity. I was wrongWhen I went to a check-up, I saw an infant with a huge breathing tube in his neck. The nurse said he lost his parents in a crash and he lives at the hospital because he needs constant attention, and he'd likely die within the month. That made me feel lucky...
maddieh- i agree with you that the war shows the struggle within Montag! I have never noticed that the war goes along with Montag's life but that does seem to be true and very logical. Also when Montag decided to take action, the war started.
leslie- who do you think is fighting the war with Faber and Montag? do you guys think that there would be a lot of people that would join their cause?
Mattf, I agree that Montag can only trust Faber but what now? He and Faber have gone seperate ways and no one knows if they will ever meet up again...so who can he trust now?
Mattf The fire with fire thing goes with what Faber said about growing flowers on flosers. thats just what the government is
on a less touchy note, I thought it was freaky how montag killed beatty!
QUESTION!!! Do you think that Montag will ever find the Harvard grads. scattered along the railroad lines? and if so, how will he be able to know if he should trust them?
mattw- Her name is Kristina...Anyway...That's true. Well, Montag did get lucky that he didn't get killed!
Jordanh, I think the war is probably being fought silently by a handful of people. I think others will probably join Montag's cause from the shadows..people are too afraid to jump in to fight the war but I think other's want to
Jordan/Alex/Lauren- I think that maybe part of Beatty wanted to die but I also think part of him was just so wrapped up in the excitement of the fire that he wasn't thinking clearly, because he obviously got immense sadistic pleasure from what he did. Regardless of if he was suicidal or not, I truly think he was happiest when he was burning.About Montag burning them, I agree. I think he just freaked out and this was really the turning point in him challenging what he has been told to do all his life.
morgant - thanks, i knew that.... hehe
I believe, just by predicting the way books usually go, he will find the harvard grads
mattw- I do agree. When Montag shot at Beatty, I was like, whoah! He's dead! He was like one of the main characters! Almost like Clarisse.
Is Las Angelas different? I think Faber menchioned that they Havard grads. were trying to go in that direction.
Do you guys think that the war is almost like Montag and Faber, vs. the rest of the society?
mattw- i think that that was what bradbury wanted to create an element of fear and scare in the reader's head to intensify the climax. would you agree?
I have another question/connection. Way back when when Faber said that they sent 10,000,000 soldiers rather than 1,000,000 soldiers, what does this say about society? How many people do they have? Is this like the book Brave New World?
maddisonm, yes and no, because faber and montag as we know now are part of a larer group of people scattered everywhere, so it's like book lovers from the past versus the world
Alright Jordan, this is my huge realistic theory for why other countries might be at war with the Us. :Possibly because the US used so much oil and made it all run out and the US also contributed most to global warming and the US suffered the least while countries like africa suffered the most. Then China and Africa got all their men who have nothing to lose and started going to war with the US because WE were the ones who made everything happen and WE are the ones who have nothing to fear because we are the richer country of the world. thats just my theory and kind of connected to real life. :D
Laurenc- I know think that that montag is on his own now. Everyone has either betrayed him or left him (or is dead) and now Montag is on the run, towards the river. Maybe someone will see him running and hide him for the mechanical hound and police.
morgant - ya, it seems like when a character dies in this book, they die fast. I like htat because it avoids the cheesy generic deaths wre the hero cries for his loss and swears to avenge them. not in beatty's case though, of course.
maddisonm- Well, it sure seems like it right now, but I'm sure more people will come out of their shells and join Montag and Faber. If they don't, Montag and Faber don't really have a chance.
maddieh- i would agree that Beatty was on a high horse at the time and much too confident. that's a good point
i think it says that the society wanted to be cautious, and were kinda scared that they would lose so they sent extra troops
mogant, I also thought it was weird when Beatty/Clarisse died. It was so sudden that you almost have to reread the passage to really get what just happened2 main characters down 2 to go..
Why did Beatty want to die?
ryad- What do you mean exactally? Las Angeles is a city in CAlifornia where all the wanted HArvard grads hang out along the railroads. This is kind of like the "hobos" of today. Do you think that our learning will ever be ignored like theirs?
morgant- I like that quote too. I think that it is almost the main idea of the society. It shows that the solution that the society reached for any problem is just to burn.
Maddison- Yeah. Just as some examples, the women were talking about the war right before Montag read the poem and the war did start once he took action. They are just small little tidbits but if you look closely, you can see them. The action in the war rises or slows with the action of the plot.
laurenc- haha! I wonder who will go next...And by the way, where DID Mildred go?
selena, if you read the beginning of the blog you'll see what everyone said, but we don't know if he did, personally i dont think he did
Jordan- This war could be about religion or controversy. Right now in the world, there are many religious wars. Also, this war could be on ideologies, over burning books and not burning books.
alexf - ya that is alot of people. BUt in history the population of countries grow bigger. In medievil europe, there were less than a million people. then half of them died of plague. Makes you wonder about china and their "one child" policy...how dumb is that!!!???!!!
lesliel- those are some great theroies. Why do you guys think Bradbury is choosing to leave out the details on the real war?In my opinion-i believe that it is so that we can focus on Montag's war. It is more symbolic then literal.
morgant- Mildred fled the city. Se pulled the alarm, and, not having the courage to face her husband or society, she left without talking to anyone. Does anyone think she will continue to think about montag?
morgant, haha yeah and I have no idea where Mildred went...but i have this weird feeling she might have or might sometime kill herself because she was so upset
morgant- That is a good point. I think it was said earlier in the book that Faber still knew people who were almost against the fireman. I bet that they will join them too.
no alexf, se will forget, because she hardly thought about him while she was with him
alexf- I think that education seems to be more and more important in society. It is hard to get a good job with out a college degree. It would take a total reversal of life as we know it for our education to be deemed usless and horrible.
alexf- Okay. That makes sense. I wonder if she will ever come back into the story, or just disappear like Clarisse...
tylerg- why don't you think that Beatty wanted to die? explain your opinion.
well bradbury may not have wanted to make people angry about his political opinion. maybe the war represents somthing he doesnt agree with in the real world but he wants people to find the symbolism themselves
mattw, yeah the one child policy is really sad...but in a sense it kinda makes sense because would you rather have people stop having children or the children starve?
morgat, i bet she wont come back, its all on montag now, and faber
laurenc- ya that seems like her. what did becky mean by white clown?and also i think she may not come back to a major role, maybe just die in a small morbid little hole... seems like her
Why do you guys think it took 3 alarms before Beatty went to go burn Montag's house? Also, has anyone else noticed the power of the number 3 in this novel (repetion in sets of three, 3 alarms, ect)? Why do you think that is there?
maddisonm- Some people may also be just like Faber. Be for books, but hide inside their homes. But, you never know...
but relating to LOF, isn't it human nature to have war? Don't you think Bradbury was just showing us how humans are? Even in this "perfect" society people are fighting
lesliel- that's another good point. do you that it is a war that can be quickly won?
Morgant Well personally i want clarrise to come back into the story more than mildred. but taking that clarrise is most liikely dead and mildred isnt. i doubt it
jordanh, i think that beatty didn't want to die, i think that at that moment he wasn't thinking and he thought montag was to confused to actually kill him, and beatty wanted to get rid of montag, so beatty knew that if he died from the flame thrower montag wouldn't be able to run away
and laurenc - i also dont see how it works, because China has more people in their country than any other, and they're not much biggere than the U.S.
mattw- That's a great point, but so far in the story, we've only heard of 1 of the 12 some characters that went to war. If one in 12 are off to war and there are 10,000,000 in war, WOW!!! MAybe this story doesn't take place in America>?! Where was the author from? could that be where it was written and taken place? ALso, this is a ton like Brave New world. I don't know if you've read it, but they pretty much make billions of people in bottles!!! So many people make it so that peole don't know each other and have no connection to one another, Could this be why Montag kept saying that nobody knows anybody?
MatthewW(i like calling you Matthew) , Becky was talking about that show on their parlor about the clown
maddieh- i think that it took 3 alarms just to make things dramati. it reminds me of the incredibles when the bad guy-syndrome-has to make his evil plan very dramatic.
laurenc- that is an interesting point. I would think that she would kill her self, i mean she has tried before. Also it seems like in this community people almost get tired with their life, they just don't want to mess with their boring, un-interesting, life anymore.
alexf- I'm reading that book too! It is REALLY wierd....
Selenam- In response to your question, I think that Beatty just had nothing left to live for. He had made up a dream where he completely made fun of one of his co-firemen, even humiliating him. He might also think that Montag will retaliate, and this is a good way to go. Also, maybe Beatty would have wanted to challenge the system, but wasn't physically or mentally able to do it so he thought he'd give Montag momentum to challenge the system by killing the cheif fireman.
Jordan, Absolutely not. I think the feelings about this war the "it'll be over in 48 hours or just a couple weeks" is very similar to hte feelings about WW1 when everyone thought that the troops would be home by Christmas and it turned out to be much longer than that
laurenc - i dont know if war is the right word. we just naturally try to get what we want, and depending on your personality, you may or may not physically fight. some people may just step aside, depending on how they were raised (the amount of discipline)
mattw, yeah and it reminds me of a little fact about Japan. Since they are so populated, they have mass hotels where people sleep in little compartments in the wall and they have a ton of those right on top and next to eachother just to fit everyone
Jordan- Do you think Beatty was just reluctant to go after his friend and co-worker? Do you think Beatty was just hopeful Montag would stop reading?
lesliel- It's almost like the people don't even care about the war. I'm much more concerned with Montag's mental war.
i think that, in this culture, with the technology they have WILL end in 48 hours. They are literally living out a fight like the cold war, it's nuclear and it won't take long to destroy the earth
tylerg- read page 122
laurenc - ok thank you. you can call me that if you want. I fear clowns....mattheww
tylerg- ok, well maybe the sudden change in her life (living without Montag or his $$$$) could cause her to think about him!? Will she come to her sences?morgant-Maybe she will dissappear to Clarisse. How would you compare Clarisse and Mildred?ryad- That's a great point. I totally agree that education is more of a need today than yesterday. Could it be, however, that like all the inventions that we talked about way back when, (saying that we are at the peak of inventions) we are at the peak of our educations?
morgant, mabye that just shows you that everyone is just so accustomed to war by this time and think about it.does the war in Iraq really cloud your thoughts all the time if you DON"T have any family or friends over there? We can't really relate to things far away even if its on TV it just seems beyond us and not directly affecting us
i read it, but montag doesn't know for sure, i still believe that beatty, didn't want to die, but didn't really care if he did, he just was there and having as much fun with mintag until he died
Morgant, well that sounds like youre more concerned about motags mental war because nobody else is caring about the real war. Its most likely because they have no idea what war is really like and so they can't even imagine how horrific it could be. Since the story is told from the citizens point of veiw pretty much the war is not a very big thing
to lesliel- i completely agree.to maddieh- i think that Beatty probably didn't care about whether or not Monta stopped reading. He had Montag on a platter, and he was proud of that
alexf- well, first of all, Mildred ran away because she was scared. Clarisse almost disentigrated (sp?) into thin air. She had no reason to run away...
tylerg - I TOTALLY AGREE!!! I noticed earlier in the book that the bombers kept flying over in major times of conflict or moments when Montag began to think. And now, finally war is declared when he has finally gone all out and and totally challenged the system!
your welcome MatthewW!
Does anyone know where Montag's wife is going to run? Will it have as many accomidities as their house did?
MORGANT- I keep getting Brave New World confused with 451!!! they are so much alike. There is no feeling, there and millions and millions of people, amazing invetnions, AND pills for everything!!!
alexf - do they get to know eachother in their...."bottles"? would that be like F451? how they know the people right next to them, but are soncentrating to hard on how to escape from the pain and misery of "being trapped in a bottle" that they only know them skin deep. Maybe thats because the only use they are to them is to help them get out.
alexf, i think that in this society, mildred can find any man and have exaclty what she had before and never think about montag again
lesliel- Well, also the book doesn't say a lot about the war, so I just keep wanting to read about Montag...
Lauren- I agree. The people in this society are already so detached that I don't think the war even connects on a personal level with the population, regardless of if they have family or not in the war. Even in our society, we don't focus on war all the time. Life goes on...
Faber told Montag that there are people living out there who have tried to do the same thing as Montag. So is he saying there are more people in the society that challenged the system?!?!
tylerg- it is true that it was Montag's opinion. that's a valid point. i suppose that bradbury left it up to us to decide...
alexf- There are still a lot of things that we don't understand about how our own brains work. There is so much more learning to be done and things to discover that we still need education but eventually, yes, education might become uneccisary.
personally I think mattw's last comment was pretty awesome... you should read it...
Alexf- In Brave New World, has the society eliminated anything out of the people's lives? If so, this would make it a lot like F451
morgant- Also, (i just wanted to see your opinion) wouldn't you agree that Clarisse and Mildred are completly different. Mildred doesn't love montag, But somehow Clarisse does (not in a freaky way though :) Clarisse can't stand conforming but Mildred can't do anything but that
alexf- haha! I agree!!! They don't feel anything, and think they can cure everything...Another sort of connection:Just like 'intellectual' is a swear word, it is almost like 'mother' is a swear work in A Brave New World.
oh, there goes my battery... bye
good point george 2
mattf - I am wondering about Beatty too. Because I am not sure about if he wanted to die or not. Like the inner circle said; maybe He had read so much about thoughts and yet he didn't think that he could, or it could be that he didn't think Montag would ever kill him. I don't know. Beatty is a really confusing character...
morgant, i agree. i just keep having this feeling that the focus point is on montag while the rest of the world, or the picture behind the focus is completely at war and i worry that that may come back to influence the story
so whats your desicion??????
Ashley (in the circle)-I love that quote. "Creation is the opposite of war." How do you guys think that relates to 451?
Ryad- do you really think education will ever become obsolete? If this were to happen, would there even be a point in living?
alexf- i agree it is almost like Brave New World is like a different version of this type of society in which the government puts a limit on what the society knows. Like with that whole idea of shocking the kids!!! I thought that was weird.
maddisonm,I talked about this in discussion with Hannah last week i think..One person can challenge the system but they need people to help them and believe in them before they can truly make a difference. I think others have tried to fight back but they didn't have the neccesary support. If Montag finds these people and unites them though....we may get quite the outcome
Whitneys, its seems as though Beatty definitely has some hidden history. Do you think the book is ever going to answer it?
alex- They are EXTREMELY different. Clarisse asks questions, Mildred goes with the flow. Clarisse doesn't like TV that much, Mildred is hooked on it. So, it kind of relates to wanting certain material things. Clarisse also asked about Montag and his job, and prompted thoughts...whick is allowing him to challenge the system.
whitneys- beatty is a wierd character and i find him reminiscent of simon in LOF. some characters are made confusing for a reason, and what better character to do this to than Beatty- the head of the very thing Montag is trying to take down...
mattf- I have a hard time imagining a place without education but if it did happen the only thing to live for is entertainment which Beatty says is all that the people really want.
ryad - I disagree, I believe that no matter how old you are you always can learn. I believe learning is completely necessary to live life. The people in this book don't learn, and look how they live.
mattw- They don't really get to know eachother in their "bottleS" but yes they only get to know the people right next to them. Oh, and yes, te society has eliminated ALL sense of feeling. Thye take this drug, SOMA, to feel "happy," just like te sleeping pills
have a nice day everyone!
whitney- I never said that learning wasn't important i said that there is still so much to learn for everybody.
Do you think Montag is almost a hero in the society? If not him is anyone?
morgant- I also liked the quote about Montag burning Beatty. He took what the advice Beatty gave him and used it on Beatty. He was a problem, so he dealt with it and burned it. It's kind of ironic that what Beatty told Montag eventually killed him.
morgant- The only person Montag can really trust is Faber, everyone else has been corrupted by the government and are more concerned about the TV than anything else. Montag can't even really trust Faber, because Faber is such a coward. Faber could tell Montag to do something that might end up getting him killed, but Faber is Montag's last resort right now.
Jordanh- I think that Beatty wanted to die because he actually felt that Montag was right, and that books should be brought back, but he didn't want to have to fight for it. He was afraid of what people would think of him, and being unhappy, so he pretty much forced Montag to kill him.
alexf- Yes, Montag will probably find the Harvard grads scattered along the railroads, but there will be no way to know whether or not to trust them. Maybe the Harvard grads aren't actually Harvard grads, but government spies, looking to weed out the readers and free thinkers of society.
morgant- Mildred left Montag's house in a taxi right before Beatty made him start lighting all of it on fire. She is probably holed up in some hotel until she can find some other husband to mooch off of.
Maddieh- It took three alarms for Beatty to go to burn Montag's house because Mildred was the third alarm. Beatty was waiting for Mildred to call so that he could demoralize Montag by telling him that it was his own wife that turned him over to the firemen.
maddisonm- No, Montag is not a hero in the society. In fact, he is probably hated by many people for killing a fire chief. Most people in society don't care much about anything but watching the parlor walls. So, Montag may have become a well liked TV character, but nothing more.
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