I think that Beatty wanted to die because he was unsatisfied with society. He understood the beauty of books, and yet he wanted to make others happy, so he sacrificed himself.
Did Beatty think that Montag was really going to kill him? Did Montag kill the other two guys or just knock them out? And what had happened to his leg so that he couldn't walk, and then suddenly he was fine?
I think that Beatty wanted to die because he did not like his life or the way that the society was functioning. He pretty much almost purposely killed himself by handing Montag a weapon to use to burn things. After all Beatty always said, "If you have aproblem, burn it," or something along those lines. Also, like Stephania is saying it seems like he did know what the society was like before so he wanted that back, but was never able to get it.
Jose, Montag killed Beatty because Beatty was going to arrest him or kill him or something like that. If something's going to hurt you, burn it. That's how everybody thinks in this book!
I agree with Maddie f- I think that he did want to die because he knew about a life that was beautiful and where you learned all the time and he is living in a society with no learning and no books and he wasn't strong enough to challenge the system so he gave up the life he wanted just so that he would fit with society.
Does Montag really have a plan of escape, or is he going to let the hound catch him and make some dramatic speech about how rotten society is? Also, was anyone else freaked out about the teenagers trying to run him over? They think that it's okay because of the shows on the parlor that encourage violence; like what Mildred and the ladies were watching where there was a car running people over. If T.V.s didn't show things like that, then maybe the world wouldn't be so violent.
I agree with Rachel. I think that he wanted to die because he knew life could've been so much better than it was. No one lived life to its fullest. Beatty figured that he was hurting the society more than he was helping it because he burned books and ruined peoples lives. He had even killed a woman to get rid of books.
I think that Beatty kind of wanted to die becuase he knew that it was the end to his life and that Montag is going to go to the ends of the earth to prove his point. Beatty was standing in the way of his situation and Montag had to get rid of him.
Nile - I don't think Montag actually got hit by the car because they swerved and missed him so the car would'nt flip over, then they truned around and tried to hit him when he got up but they didn't.
Jose- I think that Montag was feeling so horrible being tortured into burning his own house and afterwards he must be arrested. I think it just triggered something inside him saying I am not giving up all this that I have done and I am not going to let Beatty or anyone getting in my way of CTS.
And, I also think that he keeps saying that Beatty wanted to die not becuase Beatty truely did, but because Montag is feeling sympathy and regret for what he has done and he needs an excuse to make himself feel better.
Luke I think Mildred was willing to give up the material things to turn Montag (her own husband!) in because his thirst for books scared her, and she was more scared of being associated with Montag and getting into trouble than having her walls burned. And since they didn't really love each other in the first place this was easy for her to do.
maddief - I was a really confused by that whole part with the teenagers. What kind of people only see one person walking down the road in the entire world each year and there first impulse is to run him over with the car.
Jose, Beatty called himself and Montag the "Happiness Boys." He said that there purpose in life was to make others happy, by not letting people argue over or get confused by books. Montag seemed happier though when books were in his life, and I think that that was the same for Beatty, he just cared more about others than himself; he gave up his happiness that he got from books for society.
Javon- good point. I agree with the idea that Montag may possibly be trying to make up excusses to make himself feel better. In life we all do that at some point don't we?
I agree with Molly. I don't think that beatty wanted to die. I think Montag just thought he did, because of the way Beatty reacted when Montag turned on him. Also, did Montag really kill the other two firemen or did he just like knock them out?
Why is everyone portraying Beatty as a good guy, I think he was more of the villan because he made Montag burn his house and was trying to confuse Montag when he was at the firestation and he even sent the Hound after him.
Maddief- that is a really good point about tv. I think the violence on TV is telling the kids that violence is okay. Think about violence on TV today. Little kids always want to have guns and things because they see the super heroes fighting off bad guys.
i think that beatty didn't defend himself because he had books himself; when he saw what was happening to Montag, he didn't want to go through that and would rather die: its like suicide by cops, except instead of cops, its a crazed firemen with books...
nilec- he said that the if he had been like 1/16 of an inch closer it would have run him over and killed him. His leg is hurting because the Hound injected to morphine into it. It made his leg all numb.
lukez- i think that the teenagers prove that common courtesy and sense for that matter are no longer present in the society. its like today, people tp houses, but 100 years ago this would have been thought as crazy and insane. today it is thought of as normal almost.
Maddie F- I think your ideas are good and I have the same sort of question. What does everyone think about what Montag plans on doing now that this is all done? What ways does he plan on challenging the system now?
I also had a couple ideas how do they broadcast T.V. and news and those kind of things because if Montag went on T.V. to say all is thoughts of books and why we need to read them, couldn't he convince a large portion of the population because everyone believes what they see on parlor walls??
Luke, the teenagers are taught violence because it is encouraged in that society. The T.V. shows that are on encourage hurting others, like the White Clowns hacking off each others' limbs, and cars running over people. They make it seem like it's okay, therefore the kids think that they can run someone over.
Maddie - I disagree that Montag was happier before books were in his life, well, at least a false sence of happines. He seems more on-edge and meaner than before so, for now at least, i think he was happier before books.
I agree with Brian c- i dont think that beatty was really a good person he kind of conned Montag into burning his house and took advantage of Montag at the firestation and its seems like he was out to get montag becaus ehe would do things just to cause him more problems
WHAT THE HECK????????????????????????????????????? Why in the world would Beatty want to die? He couldn't have EVER predicted that Montag would've killed him.
aaron- yes i agree when you said that Beatty didnt defend himself becuase i think that Beatty had books himself and he knows that they are actually good. It is just his job to burn books so thats why he acts like they are bad. But he knows that Montag is doing whats right....
phoebef - I agree with you. They only care about themselves because the only reason that they didn't kill him was because they thought that if they ran over him while he was on the ground like that they might flip the car going 130 mph and that would cause harm to them.
I think Beatty wanted to die because he clearly had read and loved books at one point because of all the quotes, and he was subconciously sad that he had turned against the books by being a fireman. His happiness was just a front, and he was only pretending to like his job and burning things. Or maybe he convinced himself about his happiness, but then realized that he was unhappy. Or, back to the first argument, he was extrememly depressed and knew it well, and just wanted to die so he provoked Montag, who had the flamethrower in his hand.
I notice some people talking about Mildred and i think she was the one who tunred Montag in. As I had said two days ago in the discussion circle... Based on what we have seen in relationships in this society I think Mildred realizes that this isn't the life she wants and that she can go find someone else to support her and Marry her just as easily as it had been to marry Montag. I think she realizes its easy to find someone to love you in this society and since her life isn't the way she wants it she will go find a new one.
I don't think Beatty wanted to die, but he knew he was going to. A few fish bowls ago, I was wondering how Beatty could know how bad off this society was, and know of these beautiful words that they are destroying and be okay with it. Did anyone else notice that?
Javon, that's a really good point. They mention several times in the book that the people believer the 'parlors' because they're "real." If they see a man on the parlor wall spouting some speech about books, then they'll have to believe him because to them he is real. What I want to know is, will the broadcasters censor his words so that people don't hear his speech?
I think Beatty sort of gained control of Montag when he was saying all those quotes and confusing Montag, so it was easy for Montag to burn his own house when Baetty told him to.
I am almost sure that Beatty knew that Montag had books. He talked to Montag about, "didn't you get the hint when I sent the hound around?" and little things like that.
louiseb- i think that innitially montag and beatty were friends, but they grew apart. i kind of relate this to wicked when glenda and alpheba are seperated by their wants and beliefs. I think that beatty almost envies montag because he has the strength to cts, sort of like glenda more is or less uneffected when alpheba dies. glenda envies alpheba for what she was able to die for.
I think Beatty might've had to be at least a little suicidal. You can't take everything away from someone and then just give them a flamethrower and expect everything to end up fine. Beatty had to have known there was some chance that Montag had nothing to lose and could've killed him.
Also, maybe Beatty was testing Montag. Beatty knows that Montag is trying to test the system but doesnt know that he is for-real. So he maybe he is trying to see if Montag was true in his challenging....
Remember earlier how it was said that the kids of their society were killing each other? That's why the teenagers wanted to run Montag over with the car. Kids and teens in this society are violent and vicious, and it's like the only thing they do is hurt other people.
Why did he care if Montag was his friend or not? While he made Montag burn down his own house, he said, smiling, "Oh, and when you're quite done, you're under arrest."
Javonm - I agree with you that she really didn't want to live like this. I was surprised that she was willing to give up all the material things in order to get the books out of her life. I wasn't surprised that she was willing to give up her marriage with Montag though.
I still don't get why the kids in this book are so evil. I mean, when the kids in that beetle almost hit Montag, they turned away from their activity just to run Montag over. And how are there people like Montag still alive if their whole childhood was full of killing people and avoiding being killed?
I think that Rachel brought up a really good point, just because Beatty never told anyone that he wanted to die doesn't mean that he didn't. Some people are really good at hiding emotions and so no one can really see what the true emotions are.
Johnb- How do we know for sure that Beatty was completely bad? It reminds me of starwars and how Darth Vader seems to be all bad but at the end Luke discovers that there really is some good left in him. Beatty could have been good but then been changed to bad.
I think that Beatty did want to die. Otherwise he would run the other dirction when he saw Montag. Instead he stood his ground and mocked Montag and basically askes him to kill him. He seems like he really was wanting his death to happen.
Beatty probably wouldn't confess about the books, I mean he's the fireman captain! He would practically be executed, I mean the captain confessing to having books...basically Beatty was just covering his butt but he was actually a lot like Montag.
Brian, I agree with what you said about his false sense of happiness. Before books he was trying to make himself happy by burning, but after books came into his life, he finally saw what the world was like. So you're right, he might not necessarily be happier, but for the first time he is actually living.
I think that Beatty was unsure of what he really wanted. I think for a moment I think that he was really ready to die that all that he has done in his own life of burning other peoples books, when he has his own, doesn't seem right and that he was ready to die. Then I think he was having contradictory thoughts as I had put in my brains project that he is thinking against what he normal thinks, but that he is too far into what he already is that he can't pull himself backout now that he is second guessing himself?
John How would you feel if you made your friend burn down their house and then arrest them AND Beatty has burned so many peoples homes and burned a woman alive.
Kristin- I made that connection too. Montag and Macbeth started out as relatively good people who are trying to help other people but then they get in over their heads. That's when they murder numerous people and lose everything.
Even though Faber played a fairly small part in the book, how big did he effect what is now happening to Montag? Is it kind of like how Lady Macbeth affected Macbeth Will Faber perhaps come back into the book later?
i agree with elizabethc i think that beatty was originally a good peerson, and still thought of himself as one. in his mind, he was saving society from the evil of books. he might still believe or think he believes that he was doing the right thing.
Amy I'm not quite sure I think that Beatty is the tragic hero at this point in the book. but later it could be Montag. It's really hard to tell right now.
I don't really think that Beatty considered Montag a friend. People of this time don't really have friends. Nobody really knows anybody else, they just talk to them. I really don't think that anybody knows anybody else, not even there spouses, on a real personal level.
Where are we getting the idea that Beatty has books? It never said that in the book, it said that he had been curious but then he got rid of them. Alot of this is just assumptions and guesses. Is Montag going to die at the end? He maybe killing people in order to make the world a better place, but will he go in to deep in blood, like Macbeth?
Yeah, seriously Brian, how could Montag have ended up the way he did while kids are raised to think that it's okay to kill people. Montag has never been okay with that, even before he started reading books. He only killed Beatty out of necessity, not pleasure. So what kind of childhood did Montag have?
alexd- if Hitler ever had a trail would they have been justified to kill him? Yes, because of the millions of people that he killed. It really depends on the situation and what that person does. However, I don't know if it was justified to kill Beatty.
Alex I think that it can be justified to kill someone if the cause is just. I mean I can't imagine myself killing anyone but I do think it is in certain situations, like how Ms. Smith said about stealing medication to save a baby and you didn't have enough money.
Alex I think that it can be justified to kill someone if the cause is just. I mean I can't imagine myself killing anyone but I do think it is in certain situations, like how Ms. Smith said about stealing medication to save a baby and you didn't have enough money.
It's the LAW there. The way we feel now (outside the book)doesn't mean people would feel the same in the book. Montag only just recently feels sympathy for burning people and/or people's houses'.
Alex, that is a great question. I don't think killing is ever justified, even to overthrow a dictatorship. There are better ways to do stuff, and killing is the easy way out.
Zach- I think Montag is the tragic hero. He has very similar qualities to Macbeth and his life. In the end, I think Montag's actions will catch up to him and he will be punished severely and probably killed. Montag wanted to learn more about books and challenge the system of the utopian government. He had basically good intentions but that led to murder and deceit.
Aaron - I don't think Beatty was a tragic hero because 1-I think he was a bad guy from the start 2-He didn't do anything heroic and 3-He might've wanted to die.
I don't think Montag's a tragic hero either, the main reason being the fact that he hasn't died yet and most likely won't die.
About the tragic hero discussion going on in the inner cicrle, I think that Beatty and Montag were both tragic heros. I think they were tragic heroes of two seperate life stories, but I think Beatty is because he started out reading books and seeing the meanign within them, but then when he found this newborn power he could possess he completelty changed his way of life leaving the life and the goodness he loved and destroying it, his relationships with it, and everyhting involved within that life. Montag's story is very similar to Beatty's, but they aren't tied together they are two tragic heroes for two seperate journeys. What do other poeple think of this idea?
Alex d- i think that it is justified in really extreme situations but not usually, if someone was trying to kill you and you stopped them but in doing so killed them then I think that it would be ok but if you kill someone because they made you mad then it is not justified at all.
maddief - I think that Montag had a somewhat more personal level with his parents. The book mentions the time when he had a long conversation with his mother. I don't think that most kids in this time get those oppurtunities with there family.
Alex I don't think it's that justified to kill someone because what goes around comes around. The murderer lives with the guilt and will be punished one way or the other.
Montag went to visit Faber because he had to give him money and tell him what had happened. I think Faber doesn't really care if he is in danger because he is old and he wants to do something about society. Montag knows he is in danger, he just killed 3 men.
Alexd- What do you mean? Would you feel it necessary to kill someone that raped you and your entire family? And killed everyone in your family afterward except you?
About Beatty being suicidal, I don't think that he was. I believe that he wanted to escape society, but not necessarily through death. When Montag threatened him with the flamethrower, Beatty saw a chance of escape and took it. I don't think that he was planning on killing himself. Like Mildred's friends were saying, some other woman's husband had committed suicide, and he actually took his life, unlike Beatty who tricked Montag into killing him.
I don't think that Montag is a tragic hero. The thing that he is doing is challenging the system. He is not a murdered like Macbeth was unless he keeps performing different acts of violence.
amandah - I think that Montag onlyl killed Beatty out of neccesity. He knows its not good to kill people because if he had thought it was alright he probably would have killed the other 2 firemen that witnessed the events, instead of just knocking them out.
Beatty isn't the tragic hero, at least I don't think he is. His story was tragic, but he's obviously not a hero! Montag is tragic and he is a hero. He's trying to overthrow the firemen from within and he killed some of them, which is a just cause because the firemen were unjust, if that makes any sense.
Jose- i dont agree with you. I think Faber cares because it is Montag that has the courage to express Fabers ideas and HE's the one going out and trying to help. Without Montag Faber is useless.
Luke, I agree about Montag having a closer relationship to his parents, and I also think that the generation before Clarisse's was less violent. I think that violent tendencies have increased throughout the years, even in our society.
nilec-i think that it is true that faber is useless without montag, but montag is also dependent on faber. they both play an imporatant role and they both need the other for the plan to work.
Jose d I agree with Nile. Faber kind of relies on Montag for all of his plans and actions to be carried through without the help of Montag there is no point of Faber trying to make any difference at all.
I don't think anyone in this book is a tragic hero, just people who have a messed up sense of what's right, and different views than what we'd ave if we were in their shoes.
Alex- I think it is never right to kill someone, but there are reasons to. If someone has a gun to your head and is screaming at you to give them your money, or get in a car, then if you know the proper gun defense or you have a chance to punch him in the face,then do it. If someone is trying to kill you, and you don't have a chance to get away, then you can kill them before they kill you. I'm not saying it is right, but that is what I would do.
Alex- I think killing someone can be justified in certain situations. Especially in this society, like Jose is saying, killing is considered 'normal'. Montag thought Beatty was standing in the way of his intentions and was taking everything away from him. To Montag, violence was the answer. Sure it might've been the easy way out but I don't know if there would have been any other way Montag could've continued with his intentions with Beatty still around.
MaddieF- I think that is a good point becuase I think it would probably have to be a live broadcast where the broadcasters were unaware of what he was going to say and that he would just have to speak quickly and say his thoughts unexpectadly. Then again though, I think it might be too hard to get around all things necessary to get around just to be able to broadcast this message.
jose our society already is violent. Look at the genocides that have happened in our world. Look at half the movies out there, complete with special effects and VIOLENCE. Look at video games, and some music lyrics. Our society already is violent even if we don't choose to admit it.
If the hero always has to kill someone then what message does tat send to the children. How can you take their toy guns when they need them to practice killing so they can be a hero?
Jose - I strongly disargree with you about killing never being right. There are many scenarios where killing could be the only option. Here are a few...
1. In a war and someon'e shooting at you, it's either you or him that's going to die, you don't have much of an option.
2. How else would you get rid of a dictator other than killing him. If you don't kill them then they could go to a new country and take over that one.
What i'm saying is that killing is sometimes nessisary, but it's still usually not the best option. (by the way, did you know that the U.S. is one of the only countries to have a death sentence?)
maddief- i think that the violence is increasing even today from generation to generation. today teens tend to think of being violent is challenging the system. if we really think about it, its almost with the system. it is almost expected of teens to be violent.
Brianc - I agree with you that killing is sometimes needed. I know that sounded bad but there are times when if you don't kill them, they are going to kill you.
Nile you're right, that's a bad message to send to children, like "Oh! Your a hero if you kill someone!". Besides, video games, movies, music, stuff like that already shows kids that violence is supposedly good. It's portrayed as glamorous and heroic, and this is a bad influence.
I think wiht Montag and the kids, that it is just a symbol of the lifetime they are in and how fast paced, and reckless it has become do to the loss of thoughts and stopping and doing somehting. I think that people in this society don't find life and thinking exciting enough without all this dying, sppeding, killing, and burning.
Brian, I admit that I think that some people deserve death, but I still don't agree with that policy. Killing people isn't going to change what happened.
OK...what was the whole carnival thing about??? It didn't seem like what Montag was going through was much like a carnival...Can someone explain that one???
I think that not only are the kids desensitized, but they also live in a world where they are mostly unloved, and there is really no reason for them to live.
Josed- Human nature is aggression. Agressiveness is in our chemical structure. We also might have animal instincts if you believe in that. Animals kill to live.
Something Stef brought up in the inner circle...people feeling invincible. This is already happening in our world today. Everybody's like, oh I won't die, my friends won't die, my family won't die, everything's fine...it comes from not wanting to face reality.
maddief-you are right that killing someone wont change the past, but it can bring closure to the people left behind. if your freind and alot of other people were brutally murdered, wouldnt you be angry or upset if her murderer was just put in jail?
172 comments:
Ok... Why do you guys think Montag flamethrowered Beatty?
I think that Beatty wanted to die because he was unsatisfied with society. He understood the beauty of books, and yet he wanted to make others happy, so he sacrificed himself.
i think montag thought beatty wanted to die because he needed to be able to tell himself that what he did was ok.
is flamethrowered even a word?
Did Montag really get hit by a car or did he say that to express the feeling of getting stabbed in the leg by the mechanical hound?
I was wondering about Mildred. I know she turned Montag in but why do you think she was willing to give up all of her material things?
What does it show about their relationship that she would turn him in?
Did Beatty think that Montag was really going to kill him? Did Montag kill the other two guys or just knock them out? And what had happened to his leg so that he couldn't walk, and then suddenly he was fine?
I agree with Molly. I don't think Beatty wanted to die
I think that Beatty wanted to die because he did not like his life or the way that the society was functioning. He pretty much almost purposely killed himself by handing Montag a weapon to use to burn things. After all Beatty always said, "If you have aproblem, burn it," or something along those lines. Also, like Stephania is saying it seems like he did know what the society was like before so he wanted that back, but was never able to get it.
Jose, Montag killed Beatty because Beatty was going to arrest him or kill him or something like that. If something's going to hurt you, burn it. That's how everybody thinks in this book!
I don't think Beatty wanted to die, though, if he did, then I think it would have been to frame Montag and get him into even more trouble.
Jose
because Beatty was going to kill him so he had to defend himself. And also Beatty was going to hunt down Faber.
I think that in this book, most people are like Beatty: they seem happy but they are sad.
Maddie, I dunno if Beatty sacrificed himself per se... he was mad that books gave him no advice, so he wants to destroy them.
I agree with Maddie f- I think that he did want to die because he knew about a life that was beautiful and where you learned all the time and he is living in a society with no learning and no books and he wasn't strong enough to challenge the system so he gave up the life he wanted just so that he would fit with society.
Does Montag really have a plan of escape, or is he going to let the hound catch him and make some dramatic speech about how rotten society is? Also, was anyone else freaked out about the teenagers trying to run him over? They think that it's okay because of the shows on the parlor that encourage violence; like what Mildred and the ladies were watching where there was a car running people over. If T.V.s didn't show things like that, then maybe the world wouldn't be so violent.
I think that Beatty wanted to die because he had been exposed to books and really liked them. He didn't want to have to live without them?
I agree with Rachel. I think that he wanted to die because he knew life could've been so much better than it was. No one lived life to its fullest. Beatty figured that he was hurting the society more than he was helping it because he burned books and ruined peoples lives. He had even killed a woman to get rid of books.
nile- I am pretty sure that if he got hit by that car that was going 300 miles an hour or whatever, then he would be dead... right?
I think that Beatty kind of wanted to die becuase he knew that it was the end to his life and that Montag is going to go to the ends of the earth to prove his point. Beatty was standing in the way of his situation and Montag had to get rid of him.
I dont think Beatty wanted to die he was just trying to influence Montag to do what no one else will.
Amanda, how is it that Beatty was going to kill him?
I dont think Beatty wanted to die he was just trying to influence Montag to do what no one else will.
no, aaron it is not a word.
Nile - I don't think Montag actually got hit by the car because they swerved and missed him so the car would'nt flip over, then they truned around and tried to hit him when he got up but they didn't.
Maybe there was something about Beatty that no one knows about him. Perhaps there was somehting that occured in his life that made him want to die.
Jose- I think that Montag was feeling so horrible being tortured into burning his own house and afterwards he must be arrested. I think it just triggered something inside him saying I am not giving up all this that I have done and I am not going to let Beatty or anyone getting in my way of CTS.
And, I also think that he keeps saying that Beatty wanted to die not becuase Beatty truely did, but because Montag is feeling sympathy and regret for what he has done and he needs an excuse to make himself feel better.
Luke I think Mildred was willing to give up the material things to turn Montag (her own husband!) in because his thirst for books scared her, and she was more scared of being associated with Montag and getting into trouble than having her walls burned. And since they didn't really love each other in the first place this was easy for her to do.
maddief - I was a really confused by that whole part with the teenagers. What kind of people only see one person walking down the road in the entire world each year and there first impulse is to run him over with the car.
elisebeth- it said he moved enough for it to only hit his leg. And the car was only going like 120
Jose, Beatty called himself and Montag the "Happiness Boys." He said that there purpose in life was to make others happy, by not letting people argue over or get confused by books. Montag seemed happier though when books were in his life, and I think that that was the same for Beatty, he just cared more about others than himself; he gave up his happiness that he got from books for society.
javon- i agree with you because i think that Montag knows that he has done something great and he wont let anyone stand in his way..
Javon- good point. I agree with the idea that Montag may possibly be trying to make up excusses to make himself feel better. In life we all do that at some point don't we?
So javon, you're saying that something "snapped" through all of the emotional stress, and now he came back into sanity?
So javon, you're saying that something "snapped" through all of the emotional stress, and now he came back into sanity?
I agree with Molly. I don't think that beatty wanted to die. I think Montag just thought he did, because of the way Beatty reacted when Montag turned on him. Also, did Montag really kill the other two firemen or did he just like knock them out?
Why is everyone portraying Beatty as a good guy, I think he was more of the villan because he made Montag burn his house and was trying to confuse Montag when he was at the firestation and he even sent the Hound after him.
Maddief- that is a really good point about tv. I think the violence on TV is telling the kids that violence is okay. Think about violence on TV today. Little kids always want to have guns and things because they see the super heroes fighting off bad guys.
i think that beatty didn't defend himself because he had books himself; when he saw what was happening to Montag, he didn't want to go through that and would rather die: its like suicide by cops, except instead of cops, its a crazed firemen with books...
nilec- he said that the if he had been like 1/16 of an inch closer it would have run him over and killed him. His leg is hurting because the Hound injected to morphine into it. It made his leg all numb.
lukez- i think that the teenagers prove that common courtesy and sense for that matter are no longer present in the society. its like today, people tp houses, but 100 years ago this would have been thought as crazy and insane. today it is thought of as normal almost.
I think Beatty was trying to make Montag rational and didn't think he had t in him to kill him.
Liap - I think he did want to die. He was so needleing Montag so much that it just seemed obvious that he wanted to die.
Maddie F- I think your ideas are good and I have the same sort of question. What does everyone think about what Montag plans on doing now that this is all done? What ways does he plan on challenging the system now?
I also had a couple ideas how do they broadcast T.V. and news and those kind of things because if Montag went on T.V. to say all is thoughts of books and why we need to read them, couldn't he convince a large portion of the population because everyone believes what they see on parlor walls??
Luke, the teenagers are taught violence because it is encouraged in that society. The T.V. shows that are on encourage hurting others, like the White Clowns hacking off each others' limbs, and cars running over people. They make it seem like it's okay, therefore the kids think that they can run someone over.
jose- back to one of your first comments:
don't you mean depressed"?
hehe just kidding with you...
I think Beatty wanted to die, he's probably really unhappy with all the things he's done.
Maddie - I disagree that Montag was happier before books were in his life, well, at least a false sence of happines. He seems more on-edge and meaner than before so, for now at least, i think he was happier before books.
I agree with Brian c- i dont think that beatty was really a good person he kind of conned Montag into burning his house and took advantage of Montag at the firestation and its seems like he was out to get montag becaus ehe would do things just to cause him more problems
WHAT THE HECK?????????????????????????????????????
Why in the world would Beatty want to die? He couldn't have EVER predicted that Montag would've killed him.
aaron- yes i agree when you said that Beatty didnt defend himself becuase i think that Beatty had books himself and he knows that they are actually good. It is just his job to burn books so thats why he acts like they are bad. But he knows that Montag is doing whats right....
phoebef - I agree with you. They only care about themselves because the only reason that they didn't kill him was because they thought that if they ran over him while he was on the ground like that they might flip the car going 130 mph and that would cause harm to them.
brian-
i agree with you. he's not a hero...
does anyone think beatty was like Macbeth?
Javon, I don't think that Montag had a master plan, he's just "winging it."
I think Beatty wanted to die because he clearly had read and loved books at one point because of all the quotes, and he was subconciously sad that he had turned against the books by being a fireman. His happiness was just a front, and he was only pretending to like his job and burning things. Or maybe he convinced himself about his happiness, but then realized that he was unhappy. Or, back to the first argument, he was extrememly depressed and knew it well, and just wanted to die so he provoked Montag, who had the flamethrower in his hand.
I notice some people talking about Mildred and i think she was the one who tunred Montag in. As I had said two days ago in the discussion circle... Based on what we have seen in relationships in this society I think Mildred realizes that this isn't the life she wants and that she can go find someone else to support her and Marry her just as easily as it had been to marry Montag. I think she realizes its easy to find someone to love you in this society and since her life isn't the way she wants it she will go find a new one.
Why does it matter if Beatty wanted to die anyway? He WAS a BAD person.
John
Beatty may have wanted to die because he feels guilt for all the things he's done and now he has to arrest his friend.
I don't think Beatty wanted to die, but he knew he was going to. A few fish bowls ago, I was wondering how Beatty could know how bad off this society was, and know of these beautiful words that they are destroying and be okay with it. Did anyone else notice that?
Javon, that's a really good point. They mention several times in the book that the people believer the 'parlors' because they're "real." If they see a man on the parlor wall spouting some speech about books, then they'll have to believe him because to them he is real. What I want to know is, will the broadcasters censor his words so that people don't hear his speech?
mark-
ya. do you think that he had too high of a status to decide to come clean with the books?
I think Beatty sort of gained control of Montag when he was saying all those quotes and confusing Montag, so it was easy for Montag to burn his own house when Baetty told him to.
I am almost sure that Beatty knew that Montag had books. He talked to Montag about, "didn't you get the hint when I sent the hound around?" and little things like that.
louiseb- i think that innitially montag and beatty were friends, but they grew apart. i kind of relate this to wicked when glenda and alpheba are seperated by their wants and beliefs. I think that beatty almost envies montag because he has the strength to cts, sort of like glenda more is or less uneffected when alpheba dies. glenda envies alpheba for what she was able to die for.
John, this is a book where all the characters are human and none are black or white, so every life counts to Montag
I think Beatty might've had to be at least a little suicidal. You can't take everything away from someone and then just give them a flamethrower and expect everything to end up fine. Beatty had to have known there was some chance that Montag had nothing to lose and could've killed him.
Also, maybe Beatty was testing Montag. Beatty knows that Montag is trying to test the system but doesnt know that he is for-real. So he maybe he is trying to see if Montag was true in his challenging....
Alex- hahaha how about you blog with the right class.
Remember earlier how it was said that the kids of their society were killing each other? That's why the teenagers wanted to run Montag over with the car. Kids and teens in this society are violent and vicious, and it's like the only thing they do is hurt other people.
people sure like to say, like, "like"...
Why did he care if Montag was his friend or not? While he made Montag burn down his own house, he said, smiling, "Oh, and when you're quite done, you're under arrest."
Javonm - I agree with you that she really didn't want to live like this. I was surprised that she was willing to give up all the material things in order to get the books out of her life. I wasn't surprised that she was willing to give up her marriage with Montag though.
I still don't get why the kids in this book are so evil. I mean, when the kids in that beetle almost hit Montag, they turned away from their activity just to run Montag over. And how are there people like Montag still alive if their whole childhood was full of killing people and avoiding being killed?
dang it...
everyone!!!
i was posting on the wrong blog..
Thanks Nile..
I think that Rachel brought up a really good point, just because Beatty never told anyone that he wanted to die doesn't mean that he didn't. Some people are really good at hiding emotions and so no one can really see what the true emotions are.
Johnb- How do we know for sure that Beatty was completely bad? It reminds me of starwars and how Darth Vader seems to be all bad but at the end Luke discovers that there really is some good left in him. Beatty could have been good but then been changed to bad.
I think that Beatty did want to die. Otherwise he would run the other dirction when he saw Montag. Instead he stood his ground and mocked Montag and basically askes him to kill him. He seems like he really was wanting his death to happen.
Beatty probably wouldn't confess about the books, I mean he's the fireman captain! He would practically be executed, I mean the captain confessing to having books...basically Beatty was just covering his butt but he was actually a lot like Montag.
john- it's his job to say that...
he would be fired if he din't...
Brian, I agree with what you said about his false sense of happiness. Before books he was trying to make himself happy by burning, but after books came into his life, he finally saw what the world was like. So you're right, he might not necessarily be happier, but for the first time he is actually living.
I think that Beatty was unsure of what he really wanted. I think for a moment I think that he was really ready to die that all that he has done in his own life of burning other peoples books, when he has his own, doesn't seem right and that he was ready to die. Then I think he was having contradictory thoughts as I had put in my brains project that he is thinking against what he normal thinks, but that he is too far into what he already is that he can't pull himself backout now that he is second guessing himself?
Who do you guys think is the tragic hero? Beatty or Montag?
How about a new question: why did Montag visit Faber if it could endanger the both of them
John
How would you feel if you made your friend burn down their house and then arrest them
AND
Beatty has burned so many peoples homes and burned a woman alive.
interesting question by zach-
who is the tragic hero? montag or beatty?
Kristin- I made that connection too. Montag and Macbeth started out as relatively good people who are trying to help other people but then they get in over their heads. That's when they murder numerous people and lose everything.
When did Beatty show any real sympathy? Sure, he didn't rat out Montag when he knew he had the books before, but Montag didn't know that Beatty knew.
Is it ever justified to kill someone?
Even though Faber played a fairly small part in the book, how big did he effect what is now happening to Montag? Is it kind of like how Lady Macbeth affected Macbeth Will Faber perhaps come back into the book later?
I think that Montag has an evil side but it came from good. Yes, he killed Beatty but he did it because he kind of had to.
i agree with elizabethc i think that beatty was originally a good peerson, and still thought of himself as one. in his mind, he was saving society from the evil of books. he might still believe or think he believes that he was doing the right thing.
I dont think Montag is evil. He just ends up doing evil things to pupport his beleifs
Amy
I'm not quite sure I think that Beatty is the tragic hero at this point in the book.
but later it could be Montag. It's really hard to tell right now.
I don't really think that Beatty considered Montag a friend. People of this time don't really have friends. Nobody really knows anybody else, they just talk to them. I really don't think that anybody knows anybody else, not even there spouses, on a real personal level.
Well, zach, I think nobody is a tragic hero. Nobody made a sacrifice or started out good... so it really doesn't apply
Where are we getting the idea that Beatty has books? It never said that in the book, it said that he had been curious but then he got rid of them. Alot of this is just assumptions and guesses. Is Montag going to die at the end? He maybe killing people in order to make the world a better place, but will he go in to deep in blood, like Macbeth?
Yeah, seriously Brian, how could Montag have ended up the way he did while kids are raised to think that it's okay to kill people. Montag has never been okay with that, even before he started reading books. He only killed Beatty out of necessity, not pleasure. So what kind of childhood did Montag have?
alexd-yes, i believe so. What if the person is evil, or George Bush. That is justified compleatly...
alexd- if Hitler ever had a trail would they have been justified to kill him? Yes, because of the millions of people that he killed. It really depends on the situation and what that person does. However, I don't know if it was justified to kill Beatty.
alex- i think killing someone is not justified. How would you feel if someone killed you?
Markg- I wouldn't even start anyhting with the whole George Bush thing. Go and try to run the country.
Alex I think that it can be justified to kill someone if the cause is just. I mean I can't imagine myself killing anyone but I do think it is in certain situations, like how Ms. Smith said about stealing medication to save a baby and you didn't have enough money.
Alex I think that it can be justified to kill someone if the cause is just. I mean I can't imagine myself killing anyone but I do think it is in certain situations, like how Ms. Smith said about stealing medication to save a baby and you didn't have enough money.
It's the LAW there. The way we feel now (outside the book)doesn't mean people would feel the same in the book. Montag only just recently feels sympathy for burning people and/or people's houses'.
Alex, that is a great question. I don't think killing is ever justified, even to overthrow a dictatorship. There are better ways to do stuff, and killing is the easy way out.
josed-
How do you explain your comment about neither of them being good to start out with..
what made them bad to begin with?..if that is what you are saying..
Zach- I think Montag is the tragic hero. He has very similar qualities to Macbeth and his life. In the end, I think Montag's actions will catch up to him and he will be punished severely and probably killed. Montag wanted to learn more about books and challenge the system of the utopian government. He had basically good intentions but that led to murder and deceit.
Aaron - I don't think Beatty was a tragic hero because 1-I think he was a bad guy from the start 2-He didn't do anything heroic and 3-He might've wanted to die.
I don't think Montag's a tragic hero either, the main reason being the fact that he hasn't died yet and most likely won't die.
About the tragic hero discussion going on in the inner cicrle, I think that Beatty and Montag were both tragic heros. I think they were tragic heroes of two seperate life stories, but I think Beatty is because he started out reading books and seeing the meanign within them, but then when he found this newborn power he could possess he completelty changed his way of life leaving the life and the goodness he loved and destroying it, his relationships with it, and everyhting involved within that life. Montag's story is very similar to Beatty's, but they aren't tied together they are two tragic heroes for two seperate journeys. What do other poeple think of this idea?
Alex d- i think that it is justified in really extreme situations but not usually, if someone was trying to kill you and you stopped them but in doing so killed them then I think that it would be ok but if you kill someone because they made you mad then it is not justified at all.
serenal- beatty might have had books judging on the way that he talked about them.
maddief - I think that Montag had a somewhat more personal level with his parents. The book mentions the time when he had a long conversation with his mother. I don't think that most kids in this time get those oppurtunities with there family.
Alex
I don't think it's that justified to kill someone because what goes around comes around.
The murderer lives with the guilt and will be punished one way or the other.
What do you mean neither of them being good? I just said they weren't tragic heroes.
lizC- ok i will...i would probably do a way better job, seeing is how i am not from the south and what not.
josed-
Montag went to visit Faber because he had to give him money and tell him what had happened. I think Faber doesn't really care if he is in danger because he is old and he wants to do something about society. Montag knows he is in danger, he just killed 3 men.
Alexd-
What do you mean? Would you feel it necessary to kill someone that raped you and your entire family? And killed everyone in your family afterward except you?
About Beatty being suicidal, I don't think that he was. I believe that he wanted to escape society, but not necessarily through death. When Montag threatened him with the flamethrower, Beatty saw a chance of escape and took it. I don't think that he was planning on killing himself. Like Mildred's friends were saying, some other woman's husband had committed suicide, and he actually took his life, unlike Beatty who tricked Montag into killing him.
well nile....
i dont think i would like it if someone killed me..
thank you for that retorical question?
John
people still have feelings in the book.
I don't think that Montag is a tragic hero. The thing that he is doing is challenging the system. He is not a murdered like Macbeth was unless he keeps performing different acts of violence.
amandah - I think that Montag onlyl killed Beatty out of neccesity. He knows its not good to kill people because if he had thought it was alright he probably would have killed the other 2 firemen that witnessed the events, instead of just knocking them out.
Beatty isn't the tragic hero, at least I don't think he is. His story was tragic, but he's obviously not a hero! Montag is tragic and he is a hero. He's trying to overthrow the firemen from within and he killed some of them, which is a just cause because the firemen were unjust, if that makes any sense.
Jose- i dont agree with you. I think Faber cares because it is Montag that has the courage to express Fabers ideas and HE's the one going out and trying to help. Without Montag Faber is useless.
alex-
i think that, like louise said, only in extreme situations...
i'm religious and believe in "thou shalt not murder" and would stick to it...
Amandah
well, obviously they don't show it often. Montag hasn't had a problem with it in 10 years.
Moving up to violence... do you guys think our society will lead to violence
Luke, I agree about Montag having a closer relationship to his parents, and I also think that the generation before Clarisse's was less violent. I think that violent tendencies have increased throughout the years, even in our society.
nilec-i think that it is true that faber is useless without montag, but montag is also dependent on faber. they both play an imporatant role and they both need the other for the plan to work.
john-
well i was just asking if there was ever a situation that it would be ok to kill someone..
to anwer your question..
yes if that was the situation it would be ok to kill the person who did that to me and my family..
Jose d
I agree with Nile. Faber kind of relies on Montag for all of his plans and actions to be carried through without the help of Montag there is no point of Faber trying to make any difference at all.
I don't think anyone in this book is a tragic hero, just people who have a messed up sense of what's right, and different views than what we'd ave if we were in their shoes.
Alex- I think it is never right to kill someone, but there are reasons to. If someone has a gun to your head and is screaming at you to give them your money, or get in a car, then if you know the proper gun defense or you have a chance to punch him in the face,then do it. If someone is trying to kill you, and you don't have a chance to get away, then you can kill them before they kill you. I'm not saying it is right, but that is what I would do.
jose-
our society IS violence; maye not as bad as F451's, but it's still bad...
Alex- I think killing someone can be justified in certain situations. Especially in this society, like Jose is saying, killing is considered 'normal'. Montag thought Beatty was standing in the way of his intentions and was taking everything away from him. To Montag, violence was the answer. Sure it might've been the easy way out but I don't know if there would have been any other way Montag could've continued with his intentions with Beatty still around.
MaddieF- I think that is a good point becuase I think it would probably have to be a live broadcast where the broadcasters were unaware of what he was going to say and that he would just have to speak quickly and say his thoughts unexpectadly. Then again though, I think it might be too hard to get around all things necessary to get around just to be able to broadcast this message.
jose- there is pretty much violence anywhere you go. There was a fight in the locker room the other day. It is pretty much human nature to fight.
jose our society already is violent. Look at the genocides that have happened in our world. Look at half the movies out there, complete with special effects and VIOLENCE. Look at video games, and some music lyrics. Our society already is violent even if we don't choose to admit it.
If the hero always has to kill someone then what message does tat send to the children. How can you take their toy guns when they need them to practice killing so they can be a hero?
Luke
I think Montag killed Beatty out of self defense too.
Jose - I strongly disargree with you about killing never being right. There are many scenarios where killing could be the only option. Here are a few...
1. In a war and someon'e shooting at you, it's either you or him that's going to die, you don't have much of an option.
2. How else would you get rid of a dictator other than killing him. If you don't kill them then they could go to a new country and take over that one.
What i'm saying is that killing is sometimes nessisary, but it's still usually not the best option.
(by the way, did you know that the U.S. is one of the only countries to have a death sentence?)
markg- maybe you would do a better job, but it is definately not the easiest thing that you could do. You have to agree with that.
Elisabeth, do you think it's human nature or human nurture and agression?
brianc- war is a completely different story on killing. That is what you do during war so people are constantly killing people.
Mark..
i would vote for you.......
josed- human nature. Remember Lord of the Flies. yeah, that prooves my point.
maddief- i think that the violence is increasing even today from generation to generation. today teens tend to think of being violent is challenging the system. if we really think about it, its almost with the system. it is almost expected of teens to be violent.
Brianc - I agree with you that killing is sometimes needed. I know that sounded bad but there are times when if you don't kill them, they are going to kill you.
Nile you're right, that's a bad message to send to children, like "Oh! Your a hero if you kill someone!". Besides, video games, movies, music, stuff like that already shows kids that violence is supposedly good. It's portrayed as glamorous and heroic, and this is a bad influence.
I think wiht Montag and the kids, that it is just a symbol of the lifetime they are in and how fast paced, and reckless it has become do to the loss of thoughts and stopping and doing somehting. I think that people in this society don't find life and thinking exciting enough without all this dying, sppeding, killing, and burning.
liz-
even though there was a fight, it was sparked by bad stuff... another human nature... thing...
Brian, I admit that I think that some people deserve death, but I still don't agree with that policy. Killing people isn't going to change what happened.
Does anyone have any opinions on the carnival thing? Was that just entertainment for the society?
Elisabeth - That's why I said that was one of the times when killing is nessesary because Jose said killing should never be nessesary.
I agree with Brian. It's a dog eat dog world in real life. Kill or be killed (not necessarily ALL the time).
OK...what was the whole carnival thing about??? It didn't seem like what Montag was going through was much like a carnival...Can someone explain that one???
amanda- yes i agree with you. You have to live with guilt, and there is such a thing as karma...
also, in response to amy's comment, people congatulated the kid who beat someone up... how ridiculus...
I think that not only are the kids desensitized, but they also live in a world where they are mostly unloved, and there is really no reason for them to live.
john-
do mean life in the book is kill or be killed or real life..?
Brian c i agree that killing shouldnt ever be necessary but the reality is that a lot of time killing is necessary wheter we like it or not.
Josed- Human nature is aggression. Agressiveness is in our chemical structure. We also might have animal instincts if you believe in that. Animals kill to live.
Something Stef brought up in the inner circle...people feeling invincible. This is already happening in our world today. Everybody's like, oh I won't die, my friends won't die, my family won't die, everything's fine...it comes from not wanting to face reality.
maddief-you are right that killing someone wont change the past, but it can bring closure to the people left behind. if your freind and alot of other people were brutally murdered, wouldnt you be angry or upset if her murderer was just put in jail?
Alex
Well, both, really.
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