Wednesday, October 17, 2007

Fahrenheit Fishbowl 25-40 period 2

238 comments:

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amyw said...

testing, testing

Liap said...
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ZachH said...

My big question is what happened to Clarisse?

kristenw said...

test

aaronw said...

yes zach... what did happen?

amyw said...

Why did Clarisse just disappear like that? Did it give any hints anywhere?

kristenw said...

good question zach h. i got confused at that part i wondered if she moved away or what.

amandah said...

I have a question, why are all the kids killing eachother and why isn't anyone doing anything about it?

ZachH said...

Maybe she was taken to that facility that was mentioned in The Pedestrian. Where they took Mr. Lead.

maddief said...

Montag reminds me a lot of the Mechanical Hound. Although Montag is "alive," he only follows the instructions that he is given; he doesn't actually live because he does not make his own choices. The Mechanical Hound is programmed to do its job, just as Montag is told to burn books. When he took that book from the fire, that was his first moment of truly living. It was his form of challenging the system.

Liap said...

I think the schools are trying to mold people into the perfect citizens, so that they don't ask questions about all of the mysteries in their society.

MollyS said...

Do you think the hound effected Montag the way he does before he met Clarisse?

Lukez said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
aaronw said...

ya... it was weird with the kids...

KatherineM said...

Pages 25 to 40 left me wondering if Clarisse was taken away, because people found out how different she is from everyone else.
Like Zachh said, I was thinking that she might've gone to the facility Mr. Lead went to.

amyw said...

amandah I think the kids are killing each other because there society is so violent and it's seen as normal. (That says a lot about their society right there...) Their society is corrupt, and war + killing is a big part of that.

amandah said...

I have the same question as everyone else what happened to Clarisse?

markg said...

I thought that it was interesting that when Montag and the other firefighters busted in to the womans house how they said that the people were not real in the books. Why would they not want people to read them just because the people in the books are made up?

chelseas said...

Josed, I think that the school is a reflection of their society. I think that Clarisse is antisocial in some ways, but is very outgoing in other ways. She interacts like nick said, and sort of goes out of her way to get to know others. I agree with what Liz said about the schools reflesting the ways of society.

Liap said...

Wasn't Clarisse only gone for one day? I was kind of confused by that.

alyssas said...

I had a question that I posted on the blog but nobody really answered it. Bradbury repeates several times a saying about the firemens' "faces being burned by a thousand fires." Does anybody have any idea why tha quote is important?

kristenw said...

haha i was wondering that also amanda h. the girl was like 6 of my friends have been shot i was like wow.

MollyS said...

katherine- I don't think Clarisse would have gone quietly if they tried to take her away, and if they did manage to take her then i think she would have left something behind for Montag, she wouldnt just abandon him

amyw said...

Luke I don't think he actually took the book, at least the way I understood it he just read a line from it even though it was forbidden.

stefo said...

In the questions melissaz wondered about why others killed each other and died too young. In this sociey, people are expected to always to be happy, to be athletic, and to only want to have fun. It is looked down upon to be sad. So there is no outlet for this sadness and it just builds up until their only option to escape, to reeally feel is to die

Javonm said...

Since no questions have been posted yet I am going to answer Jose's first question: Is the schools a picture of the dysfunction of this society?

I believe that the talk that Clarisse has to Montag about the school, dose reflect on the dystopia that these people seem to live in now. I think the biggest point that showed that this was definetely a dysfunctional society was when CLarisse told Montag that the school is making her see a psychiatrist because se is considered anti-social. I don't understand very well what the meanign of anti-social is if that is what they define Clarisse. It just shows that if we let technology take us over things will begin to change dramitically, being social will mean being social with yourself and your electronics.

maddief said...

Zach, it didn't say anything about Clarisse. So far we don't know, but I really hope that she's okay; she's my favorite character! That's a good theory though, about her taken to a facility for people trying to live in the past.

nicolek said...

To amandah's question:
i thought it was really sad when Clarrise said that already at least ten of her friends have been killed by other people. It seems to me, that the more society tries to move forward and evolve they just end up becoming more destructive towards each other. it remindes me a lot of the moive Children of Men. their society kept trying to move so far forward and become more advanced that it just brought on violence and poverty

ZachH said...

AmandaH-

I don't know that thatis a major part of the story, but it is a good point. My thoughts are that she does not literally mean killing as in murder, but just figurtivly saying killing. Like when you siblings are annoying you and you say I'm gonna kill you. i think she means they are rude to each other or mean. I don't think it is murder killing.

SerenaL said...

I thought that Clarrise and her family might have been arrested because they were not as society accepted. Like in the Pedestrian when he was taken away just for walking.

markg said...

I think that Montag never changed his view on books becuase he knows that theyre not bad it's just his job to burn them so he just does it.

alyssas said...

Luke Z.- I think Montag took the book because Clarisse changed his mind about there society and now he is challenging the system more than he ever would have before.

amandah said...

Maddief-
good connection I've never thought of it that way.

chelseas said...

I think that Montag has just gotten too wrapped up in society. When he ran into Clarisse, she showed him a whole different perspective. She caused him to be able to see life from a different way.

Louiseb said...

I agree with Lia p it seems like the schools have one idea of how people should be and if someone does not fit their description of the perfect person then they are completly useless and if anythhing happens to them no questions are asked because they are no worth asking questions about

Javonm said...

I had a question... When Montag went into the house to burn the books when he left did he takre a book with him because that part wasn't very clear to me?

kristenw said...

thats an interesting point molly s. i do think clarisse changed Montags view on things. Before i think Montag wouldn't have been as afraid of the hound as he is.

phoebef said...

alyssas- i think that the quote is refferring to the guilt or sin that the firemen are commiting. In burning the books they are destroying knowledge. Bradbury is trying to show that the firemen may know that what they are doing is wrong, but the society revolves around making it acceptable.

aaronw said...

did anyone see that when he asked about the first firemen, that they took out a BOOK to look at the history of them?? and also, was ben franklin really a firemen?

Liap said...

Kristen& AmandaI was also suprised by all the kids who were killing each other is this because they have nothhing better to do?

markg said...

molly- i think that you are right when you said clarrise was taken away. She knew to much and the government had to shut her down before she lets her voice be heard.

stefo said...

English class is all about books. Understanding books, reading books, comparing books. Almost every class uses books. School without books is just a time waster. Such a school in this soicety only exists because society expects it too. Nothing is really learned.

MollyS said...

kristen- but why does she have this effect on him? after all she is so much younger and seen as the 'fool'

Lukez said...

MarkG - I think that the way society is in this time makes everybody so focused on the material things that most people don't see the point in reading something that is based on fake people. I also think that they firemen don't want people to read and are using any means necesarry to make them not want to read. One way that they do that is by burning the books. They also do it by trying to convince them not to want to read again.

KatherineM said...

I definitely think the school is a reflection of society. It's like the school is encouraging kids to be antisocial. Kids at school are learning how to be just like everyone else. Kids don't seem to know how to interact with each other. Like Amyw said, they're killing each other, so there obviously is a big problem. The society has many flaws, and the school appears to be igniting these flaws.

amyw said...

Mark I think everyone just wonders why you would want to read something with made-up people, like it's a waste of time or something. (This could also be a false reason to cover up the fact that the people aren't allowed to think.) The way this society thinks, why read books with people that aren't even real when you could be watching TV?

MollyS said...

mark- but why would they take her away??? what would she have done to be prosecuted?

ZachH said...

Aaronw-

Ben Franklin was the first fireman, but he didn't burn books. He was a publisher books actually. but he was the first modern day fireman, as in the type that puts out fires.

Liap said...

javonm-I don't really get that either, but I think he just wanted to explore what the book was like, and what it's like to read them. Also, was what he had hidden in the heating grille another book?

phoebef said...

I agree with kristenw that Montag is more frightened by the hound because he knows that his thoughts are against the society. But he is also afriad because he thinks the hound knows that as well. Does the hound know peoples thoughts? or is it simply a machine that as used as eyes and ears for the goverenment?

stefo said...

What is in that vent? I no longer believe that it is something watching him. He may be hiding something and it would appear that his fire captian is catching on that he is hiding something and is using the mechanical hound to scare him

alyssas said...

Yeah Aaron W., I noticed that too. So not only do they burn books in Montag's society, but they also change the history that is contained in the books.

So if they changed that fireman's book, do you think they change the books the have in school, or do they have any books in schools at all?

chelseas said...

Maddir, I agree with you about how Montag reminds you a lot of the Mechanical Hound. Montag is "alive," but he only follows the instructions that he is given. The Mechanical Hound is programmed to do its job, just as Montag is told to burn books. In a way, you have to break out of your shell, and try something new. Montag challenged the system be taking the book from the fire. I think that this society needs to branch out and try something new. This society is one that never thinks outside the bok.

SerenaL said...

aaron w-
I didn't notice that they took out a book to see the history, but they said that only certain books were banned. When Montag was in the house that he had to burn, he said that there was a list of the million books that had been banned, which leads me to believe that not all books are banned. Does Montag have books behind the grate in his house? He seems really paranoid about someone looking behind it.

maddief said...

Alyssa, I think that the quote, "faces being burned by a thousand fires," means that the firemen are near a lot of fires. When you sit around the fire when you're camping, eventually soot will gather on your face and your cheeks will turn bright red. It's pretty obvious when you've been by a fire. However, in Montag's case it could mean more. The fires that have burnt his face could also represent his guilt of the books he's burned.

nicolek said...

Yeah, i think that Clarisse may have been taken away because she was such a free thinker and did so many things that the government didn't exactly support. I think that Molly was right about how he wouldnt have reacted to the Hound the same way he did before he met Clarisse.

Do you think in society today that thinks are just "passing through our funnels" or are we actuallt retaining everything and thinking on our own?

markg said...

lukez- yes i agree with you. If the goverment make something illegal than everyone will just think it is bad when in reality it is not.

ZachH said...

I agree with MarkG. I think that she had too much knowlege of the past that she would bring down the "Utopia".

Did anyone notice that she had knowlege no one els had

amandah said...

nicolek-
I agree with you that the more the society tries to evolve the more destructive it becomes. They are so focused on changing their society they don't realize whats actually going on in the society.

Louiseb said...

I think that Stef o makes a really good point, in this society there is no purpose in going to school, the kids dont learn to read or write because there are no books to teach them, the school only exsists because it is expected, people feel that there has to be school but they don't care what happens there

amyw said...

Like everyone else said I think that Clarisse was taken away because the government realized how different she was and that if she swayed people to think like she did, it could be dangerous. Her "problem" was that she tried to think when the government didn't want people to think, so she was probably taken away like Mr. Mead in the Pedestrian.

Lukez said...

mollys - I think that Montag is a very smart person and can see the Clarisse is a very smart person even if society in general sees her as a fool. I think that montag can tell how nice it must be to be so free spirited like Clarisse.

aaronw said...

I searched google and it said this: Ben Franklin was a firefighter, but they were not made to burn English books. They were clubs within Philadelphia and Boston that pledged to help each other fight a fire that could threaten the members houses or businesses... does anyone think the gov't of the book rewrote some books to have the "perfect world" be an idea that wass always around (like saying the firefighters burned books)??

Javonm said...

I know a few people have mentioned Clarisse's affect on Montag throughout this first part of this book. I think now that Montag has stopped to think about what Clarisse has been telling him I think his outlook on life has changed dramatically and I think his using a more present day (our present day) view of life, where technology is somewhat important, but it isn't most important, and that the simple things in life like taking walks with CLarisse, and maybe reading a book isn't so bad and is something we shouldn 't lose.

markg said...

molly- clarrise is very mysterious, we dont know what she is all about. I am just making a hypothesis when saying that they took clarrise away becuase she knew to much...

MollyS said...

Stefo- I was very curious about that when I read it. I agree it is (to use jose's word) a subconcious fear or someting he is unknowiwngly hiding. I think he doesnt know he is hiding anything, but it will come out and cause the larger change in him.

chelseas said...

When Montag lights the house on fire, he starts to think about his actions. I think that Clarisse showed or told him that there used to be a life where there were books, and that you could enjoy them. I think that he is challenging the system by taking this book from the burning house.

Liap said...

I agree with alyssa if they change the history of firemen what other history did they change?

alyssas said...

Stef O.- I see your point about that every class uses books, but you can learn without using books. We are kind of doing that in Ms. Smith's class right now, as we incorporate technology more and more in our education.

phoebef said...

alyssas- i think that the books in the schools are changed to fit the society. In todays classes the books are seen from the american point of view. i think that in motags society, the books are from the governments point of view. This can make the books very different from the actual history.

alexd said...

I have a question:

Is Montag changing the minds of the other fireman like Clarisse is changing his mind.

ZachH said...

I agree with MaddieF. I think the quote shows Montag's guilt in burning books. Clairsse has made him relize that his job isn't good. He really changed from finding it "A pleasure to Burn" to feeling guilty about it.

ZachH said...

That comment RachelS just made about Hitler changing history books was interesting.

amandah said...

Lia my thoughts on the kids killing eachother were that since everyone is supposed to be the same so maybe if they don't want to make people stop killing or being mean to eachother they just let everyone be mean so they're the same that way.

chelseas said...

Why does the cheif fireman know so much about books? Has he read books, or does he own some? This was one of my big picture questions.

Louiseb said...

Nicole k- I think that there are many things in to days society that are passing us by without us knowing it, it seems that with all these new things like technology and things being introduced into our society, we are letting other things kind of slowly die out simply because there is no need for them any more
I think that the instance is much mmore exteme in the book but it is true of real life also.

Lukez said...

ZachH - I agree with you that Clarisse could have been disrupting the Utopia but I think that the people in this time period had been so brain washed by society that the people were actually concerned about Clarisse's health. I think that they took her to a mental institution

KatherineM said...

I don't think Montag is challenging the system at this point in the book. I think he seems rather confused about everything, and he doesn't know what to do, therefore he really doesn't have anything or anyone to challenge. I think we may see him challenging the system later on in the book though, because it seems as if he's starting to see how flawed the society is.

stefo said...

Thinking about what the Ms. Smith saying. It is very true that in most school especially with teachers of an older generation information is just supposed to be memorized. No other outside thinking necissary. How similar is the society in F451 to our society? All we want is to be happy and have fun. F451 says that removing books removes unhappiness. How similar are the schools if we ignore the factor of books. I guess a better question is this; Is the society a definite possibility for today's society in the future?

amyw said...

Macbeth and Montag are a lot alike because they were both challenging the system but hiding it at the same time. Macbeth was secretly killing all those people, and challenging the system by standing alone and quietly overthrowing the government. Montag is silently challenging the system by taking the book and hiding whatever he's hiding behind the vent in the hall.

markg said...

alexd- yes i think that Montag is trying to change the other firemens mind. Clarrise had a large effect on his mind to the point where even his mind his kind of changing.

Liap said...

I think that the hound represents Montag's guilt, because there s no way the hound can know about the books, but Montag thinks it does because he is so worried that someone will find out.

MollyS said...

luke- but is that a reason to look up to someone?

mark- yea i agree that we really dont know why, by too much do you think becuase she remembered? she knew how things used to be?

maddief said...

I think that books kept people calm. When I'm upset, I read a book and escape from reality for awhile. After the firemen started burning books, people lost the option of taking a break from reality. This could explain why kids get so upset, because they can't handle life and they take their anger out on others. By burning books, the firemen are adding fuel to the fire of society's anger...yes, deep connection, people!

kristenw said...

i agree with amy about what happened to Clarisse. I wonder what happened to her uncle and her dad/mom(i don't remember if she lives with her mom or dad.

SerenaL said...

Alexd-
I think that Montag is trying to change the minds of the other firemen, but they don't really believe him. They probably think it is really strange that Montag is suddenly reluctant to the job he has always loved.

ZachH said...

Ms. Smith's thing about Sadam Hussein brings upp a good point. When Fidel Castro took power. They told the childeren at school to close their eyes and pray to God for ice cream. Whn they opened their eyes, there was no ice cream. But when they closed their eyes and prayed to Fidel Castro for ice cream, it "appeared."

Do you think that is what the Government has done to make people see books as bad?

phoebef said...

zachh- i think that clarisse has the same knowledge as everone else in the society, but chooses to imbrace it instead of ignore it. Montag is begining to think like clarisse but he didnt learn anything knew, he just saw his world form a different perspective.

alyssas said...

Alex D.- I don't think Montag is changing the other firemens' minds about their society because they think that he is a little bit crazy when he says that the hound doesn't like him. So if they don't believe him on a small thing like that, I don;t think they would believe him about such a big thing like their society.

MollyS said...

chelsea-
but isnt HE the system? is he fighting the old him, who knew nothing with the new him, who is, for lack of a better word, enlightned?

amandah said...

Kristen-
I think that Clarisse has such an influence on Montag because she is so different and she makes him realize things he hasn't before.

chelseas said...

Amy-I agree about Montag and Macbeth being similar in a few ways. I don't think that Montag is as cruel and outgoing as Macbeth was, though. They do both challenge the systen, though.

I also think that maybe Montag might be hiding books lkbehind the vents in the wall. This is just a thought.

ZachH said...

Molly, I think you are right that Clarisse had to be taken away since she remembered to much about the past.

kristenw said...

uummmmm.... i have a question. what is behind the vent in the wall? Did they say that in the book, i don't remember.

amyw said...

Stef I think our society might become like the society in the book. This is a really scary thought. If you think about it though, our society is corrupt, at least parts of it are. People are addicted to TV, and some people are "slaves" to what our society tells us (like what to wear, what to look like, how to think). Of course the way we are isn't even close to what's shown in the book, but our society could end up like that in the future.

Lukez said...

Louiseb - I agree that there are things in society that are being passed by because of the newer and better things that we are always getting. I find it hard to believe that people could ever take it to the level that it is being taken to in Fahrenhiet 451. If that ever did happen though, I don't think that it would be good for anybody.

nicolek said...

Louise B- I agree. I think that there are still a lot of people who are ani-technology and they think for themselves but there are other people who constantly watch tv and are so into new things that it becomes that only thing that matters to them. I can see our society becoming more like what it is in the book, it would only take sometime. I think its so strange that the author could predict what things would be like in the future all the way back to when he wrote it, and even know the events in the book could still happen and hold true

KatherineM said...

Chelseas, that's something that really confused me. I think the chief fireman said something that was mentioned in the Bible, and he knew about Ben Franklin, which lead me to thinking that he had to have read a book at one point in time.

Liap said...

I agree with louise, there are a lot of things that we don't reaally use anymore because we have found a faster and better way to do the same job, the only difference is that we don't outlaw things that aren't needed anymore(unless it's dangerous or something)

markg said...

zachh- i like your comparison to Fidel. I think that the one word i am looking for is...



BRAINWASHING

SerenaL said...

maddie f-
That is a really good connection. I agree with you that the books took away comfort in society, which is making the kids angry. Is this why Clarisse had said that most people were afraid of the firemen? Because they take away security and a break from reality?

Javonm said...

AlyssaS- Ya I really didn't understand that well about the fireman's book. I don't know that if in this book that supposedly the firemen had always done that. I think that the book has been tampered with thought, and that it was changed from what it really was like in the past to hide the ideas of going back to that.

This makes me wonder though... Why is the book about the firemen okay, but the books that people have in their homes are not? My thoughts had first been that I guess the firemen book was a book about the history of something, and that all the books in the house are fiction books of make believe characters as the Fire cheif had said. Then I started thinking a little more about it and who is to say that some of the books in the house aren't history books. From what I have got from the book it seems that they just go in and start burning the house and there is no checking to see what books are ok and which ones are not.
Also if the history of firmen book has changed, wouldn't that be fiction as well?

My big question about this is basically are there no books allowed or are there exceptions for things like the book of firemen? Also is writing okay at all?

amandah said...

Alexd-
good question
I think he's getting them to think more than they usually would but they don't want to show it because they are scared to challenge the system and get "in trouble"

maddief said...

Does anyone else think that Montag acts like Clarisse's older brother? I know that that sounds creepy, but Montag and Mildred's relationship doesn't seem to be doing too well, and Montag prefers spending time with the strange neighbor girl next door. It's kind of like how my brother acts around me; although I can get on his nerves sometimes or pry about personal things, he still enjoys hanging out with me.

clarao said...

Amanda- also, she has been telling him stories about how life used to be, and he likes it better, so he's wondering why things changed.

alyssas said...

Zach H.- I think they did do something to make books seem "bad" to the people in this society. I'm not exactly sure what they could have done because we haven't really been given a lot of information about the books.

phoebef said...

kristenw- ithink that clarisses relatives were also taken away. in a book im reading, when the working men are not wanted they are "red-lighted" on the train tracks. this basically means that they are thrown off a moving train in the middle of the night. i think that clarisse and her family may have been "red-lighted" by just disappearing altogether with out a big production of any sort.

stefo said...

I love what Ms. Smith said! That perspective differs with each person. So history differs with each person. Montag's quest for truth with always be endless and probably fruitless. Maybe there is no TRUTH because what is the truth anyway? How is truth decided or made unalterable if there are different perspectives? Maybe all that can be found for Montag and for all mankind is ofinding your personal truth. What you believe and your perception becomes your truth. The way that Montag will find peace or challenge the system is to accept his personal belief and follow it

Liap said...

kristen- i think there was a book behind the wall, and i think that he steals some books more often then just that one time that it was written.

ZachH said...

Kristen-

they never say what is behind the vent. I don't thinkit i s an air conditioning vent like we have today but I don't understand how it could be anything that effected the hounds.

Louiseb said...

Alex D- I think that Montag is changing others minds, even if he is not doing it on purpose I think that subconsiously he is still influencing others. He believes one thing and it contradicts what others think so unless he is really good at pretending everything is the same as it has always been, there has to be some sign of his new beliefs.

MollyS said...

if we are comparing it to castro and sadaam, then who is the 'man' in which the 451 people are worshiping????

Lukez said...

Liap - I agree with you that there are things being left behind. Like you said I think that the biggest and most outstanding difference between our current society and the one in the book is that things are not being outlawed that have been left behind. I also think people in society today don't have the idea in there head that thinking should be discouraged by all means necesarry.

nicolek said...

I agree with Lia p. that the things that people take for granted and no longer really awknowledge aren't against the law like they are in the book but just because they are legal doesnt mean that people use it. Such as books. Many people do read a lot but in our generation hardly anyone does and most people find it so strange that i read for fun and they think of it as a bad thing. I people keep thinking like that, what will the future generations think?

amyw said...

Chelsea I agree with you that Montag is probably hiding books in the vent in the hall. This seems to be like the worst thing you can do in this society, keeping boooks. That's probably why he thinks the Hound doesn't like him (because it "knows") and why he's worried that he'll give his secret away to the other fireman. Because then he'd be a "traitor"; of course fireman, people who burn books, can't be hiding books.

aaronw said...

On Page 40 when they talk about ridley and latimer, how did he know that?

chelseas said...

I agree with nick about Montag's life being totally changed by the influence of Clarisse. I also think that he views his wife in a different way, especially since Clarisse's "LOVE TEST" said that he wasn't in love.

alyssas said...

Maddie F.- I never really could have seen Montag as Clarisse's brother, but now that you mention it, I can see it. He does kind of treat Clarisse as a little sister by just talking to her and finding a routine to living with her.

amandah said...

kristen-
It hasn't said what's behind the vent but it might be a book that he really likes and couldn't burn it and maybe it means a lot to him.

Liap said...

maddief- I think Montag is attracted to Clarisse's personality, like not in a creepy way but just because she is interesting and makes him think about the society and question some of the things he accepted before.

ZachH said...

We dont' really know Molly. I think the book probably takes place in the England, and since we can't really know who will rule England in 2053.

I think the "Man" is the government that has made every one conform to the differences

maddief said...

I agree with Nick; the firemen burn books to prevent thinking. Books promote thinking, because they are the very sources of the author's thoughts. Some of the authors encouraged challenging the system, or trying new things, but because Montag's society is all about control these books became banned. What about today's society? All of these banned books that we're reading in class, would someone ever burn them? How far away from Montag's society are we?

maddief said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
alexd said...

MollyS-

Good Question!

I think that the 'man' they are worshiping is the government.

Louiseb said...

I think that clarisse has opened Montags eyes to more than just the other side of books, she has showed him that there are other people out there that are not like him, people that have different beliefs and kind of challenge the system that he so strongly believes in

phoebef said...

maddief- i think that montag does act like clarisses big brother in the way, but montag views it as him being her father, and says so. he seems to be learnong things from her and her from him. they both begin seeing the world through each others eyes. this is what clarisse wants to do which could be why she asks so many questions.

kristenw said...

amamnda h. i agree with you about Clarisse. she is very different compared to most of the people in this book.

alyssas said...

Molly S.- That's a good question because they never really specify WHO the government is. I think it is kind of like a "Big Brother" type of government.

Lukez said...

amyw - I agree that whatever is in the vent in that hallway is something that Montag is worried that somebody else will find. But if it is something that he shouldn't have, Why does he keep it? It would be much easier for him to get rid of it wouldn't it?

ZachH said...

This "Challenging the system" idea here is a lot lie the pedestrian. I think the "System" is conformity, not a person.

SerenaL said...

javonm-
I think that the government is brainwashing the people by taking away the books that are fictional. Maybe history books that are made by the government are allowed because they show people how life is and how life has always been and how good this way of life is. The fantasy books show people that some other way of living is out there, and it is fun and magical, and this is not okay because people would start rebelling against this life of harmony that the government has created. That is also why they burn the books, to show people what happens when you challenge the system.

amyw said...

I think Clarisse was a good influence in Montag's life. She came along and changed his perspective on life, and also taught him about enjoying simple things. The way I see it she taught him that you don't need 4 TVs to be happy. She taught him to think and to question (which isn't good in the eyes of the society, but is actually good if that makes any sense).

KatherineM said...

Javonm, I was also wondered if writing was allowed. Also, if books are banned, how was Montag able to read a few lines of a book he picked up? Where did he learn how to read? Does anyone know how to read in this society?

amandah said...

I agree with you alex about molly's question.
I agree that the government is the person they are worshiping.
Who is behind the government?

aaronw said...

molly- i think the "man" is a communist dictator, mostly because the utopia-ish setting and the total control of the gov't...

MollyS said...

alex- but we havent heard a thing about or from the government so far in the book, its been all firemen and school teachers doing the opressing (haha spelling...) so are they just the puppets of the government? How does fire fit into this?

chelseas said...

I think that the life compared to a candle relates to Macbeth-"Out, out, life's but a walking shadow". (Or something like this). I think that this shows that these two men are more similar than we think. The fire in 451 represents the small amount of knowledge that heses people have. I also think that it may stand for the society, in that it seems calm and controlled, because people cannot think for other people, and the fore takes away the knowledge. This is like what rachel and liz said.

Javonm said...

I think that the society that is currently intatc in this book is based on facts. Everything in this book seems to have one answer, and one answer only. What color is the sky? blue. Nothing is exciting anymore either. There is no description for anything anymore. When you describe something you have to think of a pair of words that brings forth the best possile imagery for that certain ting being described. The thing that sparked these thoughts about a fact based society is that they seem to allow the book of rules and history of fireman, which is a book full of facts and rules and everything has one answer. Whereas, they burn books that take you outside the box, or has more than one possible outlook, or require imagination and deep thought, becuase some of them are not real.

I have another question... Does anyone else see a difference between non-fiction and facts? And is this society based on non-fiction or facts?(depending on what you thnk about the previous question)

stefo said...

Alex in the outside circle asked if everyone would be effected by Clarisse or is it just Montag's personal belief. Clarisse is Montag's paticular catalyst. Maybe everyone's catalyst to change is different or maybe some people wont have one because they like how society is or they are too brain-washed to care. Everyone says that if they were in a similar postion they would do the honorable thing, who can you possibly know that? How many people follow the fads of everyday life without questioning why YOU like it not why everyone else is. That brings in a whole other subject. Who is everyone else? Are you the sole person who understand the light? How can everyone else be defined?

phoebef said...

maddief- i think that the books that are banned today are to keep people from learning things that socety does not want us to learn. this is just like the government in montags society, but his is much more blunt in their way of thinking.

maddief said...

Phoebe, you're right, I can also see Montag acting as Clarisse's father. He seems really protective of her and is concerned when she doesn't meet him in the morning.

amyw said...

Katherine I was wondering the same thing!! I mean, how did Mildred know how to read the script earlier in the book if reading isn't encouraged? Why would these people learn how to read if reading isn't encouraged?

ZachH said...

Through out the first several pages, it makes a lot of references to reptiles. It talksa about the fire hose being a snake and the fire being a dragon. In these pages, it refers to the book as birds.

Is this showing Montags change?

Lukez said...

alyssas - I think that there isn't a single person that is controlling everybody. I think that the entire government is the thing that is controlling everything. I also think that everybody is contributing to this government. The people are by not standing up against it, and Montag certainly is contributing by being a firemen at all.

Liap said...

So wait... does the government outlaw other things too or just books? It would fit if they took away everything that allows people to speak out about their government.

nicolek said...

I agree with what Rachel is saying about how the fire can symbolize society. Fire can be a good thing and it started off as moving man forward and helped but then it can become destructive and out of control. Like how the society is in the book its just out of control and so desrtuctive. Society is destroyin each other and free thinkers, people who challenge the system and the fire can destroy anything that gets in its way.

Louiseb said...

Zach H- I really liked the idea that the system is conformity. That would mean that Clarisse was a major challenger and I think that that is the idea that we are supposed to get from reading the book

markg said...

OK SOOO... Here is my underlying statement for the book. The poeple in the society are not used to anything else so that is why the government can burn books and get away with it.

meganu said...

zachh-
going back to your question at the beginning, I think the government took her and her family away from the rest of society or even killed them. Clarisse challenged the system and didn't conform to what everyone else thought. She even said that everyone called her antisocial because she didn't fit in and act like everyone else. The government clearly wants their society to be a utopia so anyone who thinks differently should be taken out. We already know that Clarisse's uncle challenges the system and thinks differently because he tells Clarisse about how firemen used to put out fires and kids didn't kill eachother. I think the government had a lot to do with their disappearences.

MollyS said...

alyssa- i agree that it is proabably a big brother thing,

yet this leaves me wondering, how, then. do they come about getting the jobs they have? Especially if they don't know the government

kristenw said...

pheobe-

thats really interesting about the "red lighting" thing. are you saying they are trying to take them away in a way that it seems like nothing happened.

lia and amanda-

thanks thats what i thought was behind the vent but i wasn't sure. i think the vent represent guilt and truth maybe. it's like blood in Macbeth.

amandah said...

aaron-
It's not really a utopia it's more of a distopia. Because "everyone" isn't the same and not everyone is happy. For example when Clarisse asked him if he was happy and he didn't know that he was happy and never really thought about it.

chelseas said...

I think that the idea of UTOPIA started with the government in this case. I agree with Clara about us being curious.

Also, how do they know if are happy or not. I think that they don't really have anything to compare it to.

alyssas said...

Zach H.- That is a good point. It seems like everybody is conforming to be a certain way, not like a certain person. It seems like everybody tries to live up to the expectations and standards of the people around them, instead of trying to impress and live up to one person in particular.

amyw said...

Zach I agree with you. I think it's saying that at first Montag was a reptile/snake, then he became a bird because his way of thinking became free and he started to think and question, and through doing this he freed himself. So the discussion of reptiles at first, then birds definitely says something.

ZachH said...

That is a really good point. In all reality it is probably just a detail that Bradbury didn't think through all the way, but possibly, they read the script since it allows you to get a better experience out of your TV. TV seems to be a big thing in our world today and an even bigger thing in the future. If you can get more out of it by reading along on a script, then the government would be okay.

KatherineM said...

I agree with what the inside circle is saying about Montag not being happy. I don't think Montag really knows what happy is.

kristenw said...

lia p
thats an interesting point about if they burn more things than books cuz i wonder if they likr got rid of all things on the internet or if they even have computers.

MollyS said...

kristen

good macbeth connection! haha

i agree that blood is going to compare to something in the book, i just am not sure if we have been exposed to it yet

amandah said...

Kristenw- made a good connection in the inner circle that how do you know what happiness is? What can you compare to prove, show, feel happiness?

amyw said...

Does anyone else think it's weird that Ray Bradbury predicted the gradual corruption of society like in the 50s, so long ago?

Lukez said...

liap - I think that pretty much everything that would encourage people to think more would be outlawed by the government. I think that the books would be the greatest thing that would do this, but not the only thing to do this.

phoebef said...

stefo- i think that everyone else is referring to the conformists and the government. this creates an over all styreotype in which every one is equal. this is the purpose of the government. i can compare this to todays society in which it is pererred physical appearence of being skinny. this makes me wonder if this expectation of physical appearence still applies in montags government? or are the people more concerned about intelectual equality?

Liap said...

I agree with Mark, if something is going on that is bad for people, it is hard to realize whats going on if it has been happening all your life. Also, I agree with what Kristen said, there can't be happy if there is no sad, and if you are always sad or bored or opressed(i don't think i spelled that right) then happy is just these lifting a little.

MollyS said...

katherine-
i dont think he ever wanted happiness, becuase no one he knew had happiness

Javonm said...

Maddie F.- I think it is more of father/daughter kind of relationship he wishes he had between himself and Clarisse. I think that he sees as Clarisse someone special and different almost someone he wants as his own, but at the same time someone he is beginning to look up to as a role model for himself.

When Montag went into the house and began to burn the books, the 2nd time we have seen so far that he feels sympathy for the old lady when he begins to burn his book, because of the thoughts that Clarisse has put into his head.

aaronw said...

does anyone think that maybe the government did something about Clarisse? maybe they found out something about her and had to take her "out"...
any comments?

alexd said...

Is the way of life in this book a cause of the government or just a natural progression of time?

Louiseb said...

I really liked what Nick and Clara said in the discussion, if there is nothing out of the ordinary to be really happy about or to be sad about then how do you really know what happy is. It seems like Montag always has the same emotion, not happy or sad but kind of content. I don't think that he really shows any emotion at all, nothing ever happens that makes his emotion that changes so i dont know think that he really knows what emotion is.

chelseas said...

Do any of you think that Montag really knows what he is looking for? Did Clarisse tell him to pursue his dreams?

I think that he might not know what he is looking for. I think that there is a part of you that also makes you sad, just like what Rachel was saying.

stefo said...

Who is the government is this story? I have seen no evidence of a government nor an obvious fear of the government. Even when clarisse disappeared there wasn't much fuss about it. Some on even said that it was they were going to catch her anyway and that it was about time. The government is just an omnipresent shadow i suppose. I see a fear of the fire-fighters and how it seems that they rule. But the fire-fighters are brain-washed as well (except maybe his fire captin) So is this society continuing the like the cogs of a clock, grinding forward with nothing actually making the cogs turn. if that makes sense. i mentioned this before in the last fish bowl but didnt get alot of feed back

Lukez said...

Kristen - I don't think that during this time that the author wrote this book they had computers or the internet. But I think that if the author had known about computers that they would maybe be used to help control the people.

maddief said...

Montag says that he is content with his life, but I think that he's just trying to fool himself. He tells himself that he loves his wife, that he enjoys his job, but really he's looking for more out of life. Thanks to Clarisse he's starting to look for happiness. The government wants people to do the same things and be made equal, but equal is not the same as happiness. In Brave New World the book that I am reading as a banned book, the people are brain washed into thinking that they're happy and content doing what they are told to. The main characters only experienced true joy though once they challenged the system. Montag got a taste of happiness when he met Clarisse and started thinking.

kristenw said...

nice molly

but there is definatley a connectionof guilt in Macbeth and this book.

KatherineM said...

I agree with what Liz said! Usually, the people you're close to make you happy, but if they're never happy, then you won't be happy either. The people that Montag is around obviously aren't too happy, because so many people are trying to commit suicide, and children are killing each other. It would be hard to be happy when everyone around you is so depressed.

amyw said...

Adding to what they're saying in the discussion about happiness, I think it's so easy to convince yourself that you're happy even if you really aren't. Like Rachel said, happiness is so trite because we all want to be happy without even knowing what happiness is. I know I've done that before, tried to convince myself I'm happy even though I'm really not. Then someone says something (like Clarisse) that shows me how fake my happiness is.

nicolek said...

I think that if you get happiness handed to you, then it won't really make you happy because that'll just be the normal thing and what they're used to. Like even if a person has everything but was born with everything, they could still not be really happy becuase that is just what they are used to and they dont know anthing else

phoebef said...

amandah- i think that people compare their happiness to others happiness and evaluate how they feel about themselves. the problem with this is that most people dont wear their emotions on their sleeves. when we compare our happiness to others we are not seeing the real them so no one is truly happy.

chelseas said...

In some ways, especially in this society, do we really need a government. Is the government just doing these things because they don't have anything else to do?

Louiseb said...

Chelsea- I think that Montag knows he is looking for something but he just isnt sure of what he is trying ot find yet

MollyS said...

aaron, i dontt know, but i dont think she is completely 'out' i think we will see her again

also, i get the idea that maybe Clarisse just pulled a clarisse and nothing really happended, and she just left to do something different, have some change, and is just peachy???

alyssas said...

Since we are talking about being happy, I think that if we try to make ourselves happy, we won't be. We may try as hard as we can to be happy, but if we do that, we are just pretending, and that can cause you to be even more unhappy. Like in a utpoia, when you try to make everybody happy, it can actually cause people to be more unhappy so they try to solve their problem by popping pills.
Like Mrs. Smith said, we have our different ideas of happiness.

Liap said...

I'm going back a little... when Montag's wife took all her pills, was she just trying to make her life exciting, like the kids who go around killing each other?

kristenw said...

luke-

i forgot that this book was written like a long time ago. nevermind about the computer thing. haha

Javonm said...

A connection to a previous post of my own. Another thhing that makes this society so fact based, is that all books have been taken out and that what these people use is T.V. to get all there information about life. Again T.V. is one sided, what you see on T.v. is what you get there is no imagining.

amandah said...

I agree with mollys. Its like being around a person who is depressed who can't help but be somewhat sad when people around you are sad. Like last year my teacher talked about "downward spirals" If you are not in the best mood you spread it to other people and make their day bad and they spread it and it's a chain but it can also go the other way.

ZachH said...

Theres a famous saying that goes "you don't know what you have until it's gone." Do you think that applys to this book? Like Mark said from the beginning, they've brain washed these people to make them this way so they don't know what they could have had. After Clairsse asks montag if he's happy, he relizes he isn't. Is happyness something you can aquire? Is it something you can have or lose?

amyw said...

Phoebe---I think that the government in the book is a lot more concerned about intelluctual equality and making sure that people aren't reading or hiding books or thinking. Physical appearances aren't really noticed in this book, at least not that I've seen.

nicolek said...

I think that Montag isnt looking for anything imparticular. He is just looking for change. He now knows that he doesn't like things the way they are and he is just looking for something that will change that and give him a better life

Lukez said...

I think that maybe the government removed Clarisse's family from everybody else because they, especially the her family, remeber times when happiness was something that was much better then what they had. They knew what it was like to be good, without kids killing eachother or hiking being weird, they knew how good life could be and it was nothing like there life really was.

MollyS said...

i agree kristen there is definatly a guilt connection- i just wonder if it is just directed towards the burning of books, is there anything else he sould feel guilt for?

maddief said...

Does society bring happiness, or does going against society cause happiness? Montag says that he wished that he was like everyone else, content to live their lives and follow orders. But after he met Clarisse, he seems more alive; he's thinking and considering changing things. I know that if I were in his position, I would rather experience discomfort but have my own opinion than act like a cow grazing with everybody else in a herd.

aaronw said...

hey does anyone think that there maybe isn't a real government? And only the police and firefighters are in control, but there is a common fear of the gov't, and everyone only thinks there is a government?? Thoughts...

amandah said...

Liap-
good point! I think she may have tried to make her life more exciting or she maybe she just didn't have happiness so she didn't want to be where she was.

ZachH said...

I agree with Javon. I think the Government doesn't want books because they allow you to think for your self and imagine. But TV takes away imagination and limits how people can think and it even makes it harder to "Challenge the System"

amyw said...

Chelsea I think that the government is doing this not because they don't have anything else to do, but because, in some twisted way, they think it's right. They want to create the perfect society, and to them this includes equality, i.e. people not thinking.

phoebef said...

stefo- i agree that the government is not going anywhere much like a broken clock. i think that the government wants this that way, and they are the smartedt people in the society which is why the technology is still moving forwards. But with only a small percent of the society coming out with new ideas eventually the progression will stop.

MollyS said...

aaron, i thought about that, i thought the firmen were the gov't. but im not sure...


opinions??

Liap said...

I agree with molly and amanda, if you're sad, you tend to subconciously do things that make other people sad, and people spread that on and then everyone ends up havin a bad day.

chelseas said...

Zach, I thought of that same quote about happiness. I think that this truly sums up the whole meaning of this topic. I think that we take too many things for granted, and that this book is showing that we have it pretty good. If we didn't have any of these things, like books, or knowledge, then we moght have these same classes. This is really similar to the pedestrian.

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