Thursday, October 25, 2007

Fishbowl 451 68-90 period 2

189 comments:

maddief said...

When Faber talks about books' quality depending on how much they touch on life, how much does Fahrenheit 451 touch on life?

MollyS said...

alyssa says testing!!!

josed said...

Fishbowl: How is Mildred so intolerant of books?

How is Montag starting to learn to be a free thinker?

chelseas said...

Mildred said that books aren't people. She's used to interacting with her "family"-can they even really be considered people?

Liap said...

I agree with Pheobe, it's a big relief to see Mildred going through with reading the books.

MollyS said...

maddie

i dont think that 451 will have an active affect on me, but i think it is the type of story that will allways have a place in the back of my mind to be remembered

stefo said...

Who is Faber? How are men like him found. What do you think about Mildred. It doesn't really seem like Montag is getting through to her. But in life today some people are like that today. Books may effect some people more than others.

alyssas said...

Why is Mildred having such a hard time dealing with and accepting the books?

nicolek said...

i agree with what mark is saying
Mildred knows that there things are gonna change and stuff but she isn't really ready for it. She would much rather sit in the parler rather than actually read the books

josed said...

Farenheit touches on life by showing a dysfunctional marriage, and the confusion of a new point of view. All of the characters are very human, with flaws and failings

meganu said...

I agree with Pheobe and Maddie. I knew that sooner or later Mildred would've given up with helping Montag. As soon as her friend called, she completely forgot about her project with Montag and spent the rest of her time with 'the relatives'.

Lukez said...

josed - I think that she has been so conformed by society that she doesn't really even want to read at all? She really doesn't see the point in reading.

KatherineM said...

Maddief, Fahrenheit 451 touches on life a lot! It's amazing how some these things in the books have come true over time, and describes what life will be like if people don't change their ways.

alexd said...

josed-
i think that montag is learning to be a free thinker through the process of challenging the system. it allows him to think more frequently. it also makes him want to be more and more rebellious.

Javonm said...

MaddieF- I think that books touch our life deeply and farhenheit 451 does especially. It impacts us becuase it has controversial thoughts about what will happen to our future if we lose things like our imagination and our ability to think without being told what to think. It also is talking a lot about equality and how striving for equality is like striving for a dystopian society.

Liap said...

Chelsea-
I think she feels like the "family" are people, because all of the effects make it seem so real, and you can't talk to books. Well, you can I guess but they won't talk back.

josed said...

Her family is palpable, and it pounds down what she has to believe. Because of this, she thinks they are human... but she herself is integrating herself into a piece of technology.

nicolek said...

maddie and molly-

i think that the book will kind of have an effect on me because even just in the middle of reading it, i realize that society is already to dependent on tv. like my parents keep talking about getting newer bigger tv's and now i see it as kind of a bad thing and thats not how i saw it before

chelseas said...

Faber brought up a good point about TVs, and that people are in color. They are there, and you don't have to imnagine things. In books, though, there are just words, and you have to imagine something, the way that you like.

Louiseb said...

Jose d-
I think that mildred is so intolerant of bnooks because she is a strong supporter of keeping their society as it is, she doesn't want to fight the system she just wants to go along with it and so it is hard for her to read books because it is so abnormal in their society.

Lukez said...

I think that Montag has always been a free thinker. His mind had just been numbed by society. it took a girl like Clarisse to open his mind and it pushed him to be a free thinker.

alyssas said...

The part about Faber's invention confused me a little bit. What is his invention exactly?

stefo said...

A thought that really struck me is how the words of the book are meaningless without a teacher to teach him to understand the words themselves. That's what English class today is for. So school is very different from school today because many classes are for interpeting books and in f451 there are no books to interpet

alexd said...

How does everyone feel about Mildred now, compared to the previous chapters?

aaronw said...

allysa- she's having a hard time because she's:
1. breaking the law
2. going against the norm
3. she just can't comprehend it

Javonm said...

Stef O- I think Mildred has proven herself to already be to corrupt from this society. As we have seen throughout the books so far Mildred is dependant on the Parlor and T.V. and people telling her what to do and better yet showing her visually what to do. TMildred has proven that the books require to much comprehensive thought for her ti understand any meanings that her and Montag have read?

josed said...

Faber explained how one can knock down the ideas in a book, but one can't argue with the sound and the music of the screens: do you guys agree?

Liap said...

Josed-
Is F 451 really affecting your life because it's showing a dysfunctional marriage? How does that affect YOU?

meganu said...

Faber said he used to be an english teacher. Do you think that he actually taught the students and read books as a class like we do today? If so, then the idea of this utopia must be new since he's still alive.

MollyS said...

chelsea- i am not very clear about what the family is exactly, but if they are just involved in the television...

i think people have become so used to being involved with 'people' (the electronic kind)that they dont know how to interact with humans

stefo said...

alyssas - faber's invention is sort of like a walkie talkie. Faber and Montag put these bullet sized "ear phones" in their ear and they can talk to each other and hear each other clear

Lukez said...

alexd - I really don't like Mildred anymore. She may have tried to read but the fact that she gave up on it shows me just how much she has become a part of this thoughtless nation.

KatherineM said...

Books require so much more thinking than watching televison. When you read a book, you think of what the characters look like and what the setting is like, where as when you're watching television, you're just getting all these images pounded into your head. You're really doing no thinking at all.

josed said...

Faber's invention is basically the opposite of a Seashell radio: instead of just telling you things, it also transmits your own voice. Does that help?

aaronw said...

what does everyone think about the role of communism in this story?

kristenw said...

I like what chelsea said about mildred thinking the books were boring because she 's so used to just being able to watch her t.v. My thought on this is that to read a book it takes intellectuality and an imagination which I don't think mildred has. Acually I don't think many people at all in this book have that. I believe the only people who still posses this are the pople who take a risk and read books. Which makes me think that maybe Clarisse and her family had books.

nicolek said...

I agree with lukez- i think that Montag has always been a free thinker he just was like luke said, numbed. where as Mildred is not a free thinker becuse even when she go the opportunity to think freely and join Montag she decided to run the other way

josed said...

I think it might be a democracy, but nobody tries to think about who to vote, aaronw.

Liap said...

I agree with louise, I think that Mildred is too lazy and doesn't really care enough to rebel. I think she feels fine the way life is and doesn't care if it changes.

Javonm said...

nicole and mark- I tend to disagree with you two a little bit and I think that books and these few people around the world challenging the system by reading them isn't going to be enough in this society to twist the government and the firemens' minds to think "hey maybe these books aren't so bad after all?" I think that society is changing to much for in the direction worse for keeping literature and walking and talking that it is just going to get worse not better.

alyssas said...

Alex D.- I now find Mildred more frustrating because I can see that she is having a hard time accepting books but I agree with Montag's ideas, so now I can see his frustrations with her. Whereas before I didn't see her as a major character.

Lukez said...

I was confused about what they said about the rest of the world in this section. Is the entire rest of the world starving and living in poverty?

Louiseb said...

I agree with molly s. When you get so used to one thing othhers seem to to become more alienated. Its like if you know how to something one way you are not going to do it a way that yuo arent sure of just because someone suggested it. In 451 people can "interact" with the TV but they dont interact with other people because it is unfamiliar to them and it is outside their comfort zone.

alexd said...

i dont really think that this book is really related to communism. there is not ONLY ONE leader in this book and thats what communism is.

stefo said...

Zach brought up a really good question. Is this a communist government. I agree with what nick said. It's not a communist government but it has government has similarities to it. Communist ideas began with the idea that money was evenly distributed amoung the people and everyone was equal.

Liap said...

I think it's a whole new kind of society. Like Nick said it has aspects of different kinds of society.

elisabethc said...

I agree with what some of you said about Mildred and how she knows that things are going to change but she is not ready for it to come. I also think that fear drives her to do what Montag says. She doesn't want to be caught by anybody. About Faber, I think that he will become a very crucial character later in the book. He also talks about why he was a coward and how fear drove him to not do certain things, or to do certain things. I also think that it is pretty cool how Faber trusts Montag even though he barely knows him. How do you all think trust is portrayed in this book?

aaronw said...

woah! HUGE CONNECTION!
if you've seen the Matrix trilogy, this is like it. Montag's friends (the firemen) are like the agents. People like Faber are the people fighting the agents. i think it works...

alyssas said...

I agree with Alex D. How is this a communist government when there is no one leader???

elisabethc said...

When they were talking about government in the book they mentioned that they had won two nuclear wars since 1990 but hardly anyone knew that they were happening becuase they were too caught up in thier own lives. I don't think that the government has a huge impact on the society. I think that the residents made it that way by them selves.

kristenw said...

Nick made a good point about communism and the burning of books to make no people more iltellectual than another. this is basically what beatie was explaining to Montag.

Louiseb said...

I agree with Alex d, there are lots of people in power not just one, it seems to me like all of the firemen are the government because they have a lot of power so comunism is probably not related to the book.

Lukez said...

I think that this society is some sort of a democracy. I don't really think that anybody is feeling like they want to or should vote though

aaronw said...

allyssa- there has been no indication of a leader, wich could mean you're right, or that they just don't want to talk about the leader...

stefo said...

continuing on the Communist government it wasn't supposed to be a bad thing. It was supposed to have everyone equal and eliminate poverty. But dictators saw this as an opportunity to control everyone and everything

Javonm said...

What does everyone think about Mildred's feelings about these boks and what actions she plans on taking?

In the future as of what we seen Montag's taking little steps to CTS, do you think he will continue on this road or give it up becuase of all the people against him?

ALso a question, does anyone know how fireproof a house is? Is it just like the outside or is verything inside also fireproof like shelves and counter tops and tables, etc.?

Liap said...

I agree with alyssas and alexd. It isn't really a comunist gov't but it has some aspects that parallel(spelling?) one.

kristenw said...

sorry random question but,

do you think clarisse and her family had books?????

aaronw said...

louise- in the last fishbowl, i pointed out that the firemen could be the mafia, or the mob. they are like a mob that is supported by a corrupt government...

kristenw said...

i definatley think clarise had books

elisabethc said...

Do you think that in a way it could be a communist government becuase the firemen are the leaders and they act as one but the people don't realize it? I think that there is a government but I am not sure where you could classify it as. Maybe it is just a "eutopia" kind of thing that is ruling the country. Does that make any sense?

KatherineM said...

I was surprised that Faber put his complete trust in Montag so quickly. If I lived in this society, and a fireman showed up at my door, I definitely would not be telling him all my secrets, let alone even letting him in. But Montag showing Faber the book probably was what made Faber feel like he could trust him.

SerenaL said...

I hear everyone saying government, but the government was only mentioned one time that I recall. Is government the right word for this? I'm not sure if that is important or not, it just occured to me.

alexd said...

even though we have already talked about this multiple times...

how do peoples opinions change when they are told they cant do something?

Louiseb said...

Kristen w - i do think that clarisse and her family at least had access to books. Otherwise how would clarisse know so much about a society outside of their own?

alyssas said...

Kristen- I think Clarisse's family may have had books. But I don't think that that is the reason that she and her family disappeared.

Liap said...

Kristenw
I agree. They were such free thinkers that it wouldn't make sense if they didn't have any.

Lukez said...

javonm - I think that everything is fireproof, which is what stopped the firemen from having any jobs because no fires were started. I think thats what created the oppurtunity for the firemen to become house burners instead of savers.

aaronw said...

kristen, i would say MOST DEFINANTELY say YES!!! she was killed in a "freak" car accident, her family would talk instead of watch TV, and lots of other challenge the system stuff...
i've said this before, but the firemen are like the mafia of the future. They are just a more public version. And they make themselves look different in public then what they look like in private...

elisabethc said...

kristenw- I think that there is a possibility that Clarisse could have had books but it said something about how the firemen had a record of her family but had not found any books. I think that her uncle acted as a book for her because she was always making references to him and telling Montag what her uncle had said. It seems as if her uncle must have read all the books in an earlier time but he kept all of the information with him in his head.

alexd said...

kristinw-
i do think that Clarisse and her family had books. i agree with Louise, otherwise they wouldnt act and THINK the way they did.

amandah said...

Kristen I think that Clarisse did have books because they had many curiosities and ideas

Javonm said...

The communist idea is like a real communist idea was. Everyone thought communism would be good for a society anfd that making everyone equal was creating all peace in life. Unlike the book everyone in the book believes it is ok becuase everyone nis happpy becuase it is a one answer society, whereas the orignal communist society failed. You can't creat everyone equal becuase havign higher level people and lower level people balances life. It is impossible to make evryone equal in all ways without going absolutely insane on dumbing down or making smarter like in Harrison Bergeron. Striving for equality isn't ok, becuase since it can never be reached in any form of life, (looks, brains, houses, income, possesions, etc.) that the society will venetually downfall because of the impossible journey.

stefo said...

I have a question relating F451 to reality today. Are people not learning as much as they could be now? With all the pretty materialistic things that exist today to keep us occupied without making us think. Is society becoming like Mildred?

KatherineM said...

I think Clarisse and her family most definitely had books. That's why Clarisse and her family were so different from everyone else. Clarisse and her family were free thinkers. They read books, and they seemed to have much greater knowledge than everyone else.

kristenw said...

louise- true and also i had made a comment earlier about how it seems like the only intellectual and imaginative people in this world have books, and clarisse definatley has both of those.



alyssa- I agree but it makes me wonder what happened to her. did she really get hit by a car???

phoebef said...

lukez-if everything is fireproof, then how are the firemen able to burn the houses, wouldnt everything being fireproof make the firemens jobs more difficult?

alyssas said...

Serena- I noticed that too. A lot of our discussions are about the government, but in the book, it rarely talks about the government. Could this mean that their is a government at all, is government a major part of their society, or are we all just making assumptions about it?

Liap said...

aaronw
I think that the firemen aren't so much a mafia, because the mafia doesn't usually get along with the gov't, but they do do a lot of things that are related to what the mafia does.

chelseas said...

I totally agree with what Maddie said about the people not knowing any true happiness to compare their lives to. They think that they are happy, and are trying to convince themselves of that.

aaronw said...

does anyone think that faber was lying when he said he wasn't a religious man?? I mean he cringed at every single page montag tore out...

melissa m.o. said...

Have you ever heard or seen a bumper sticker that says "Question Authority"? What do you think that means? How do you think the govt. in F 451 would feel about that?

Lukez said...

I was just thinking. Aren't there a lot of similarites between Faber and Clarisse's Uncle? It seems like the grew up in the same time period.

alexd said...

stefo-
What do you mean... is society becoming like Mildred?

elisabethc said...

What do all of you think about the plan that Montag had talked about with Faber? Do you think that this will be sucessful or not. I know that we talked about if one person could make a difference in a discussion before this, so do you think that there is a possibility for them to follow through with thier plan?

chelseas said...

What was the significance of the "sieve and the sand".. I was a little confused about that.

Louiseb said...

Stef o I think that some people are learning to their full ability but im sure that there are many people that arent. In our society today it is so easy to just look things up on the internet of copy them so that you dont really have to put much thought into anything you do anymore. I think that you have to make the decision to learn, it has to be something that you really want in order for it to happen.

amandah said...

stefo
There is always something more to learn not matter how much you know you can go research more on it and you'll find new information

meganu said...

I think this might only be a utopia in Montag's town. Montag says, "We have started and won two atomic wars since 1990! Is it because we're having so much fun at home we've forgotten the world? Is it because we're so rich and the rest of the world's so poor and we just don't care if they are? I've heard rumors; the world is starving, but we're well fed. Is it true, the world works hard and we play? Is that why we're hated so much?" Sorry it's a long quote but I think it's important. He talks about how he doesn't know much about the rest of the world. He's heard rumors but he doesn't know for sure. He also talks about hatred. If the world was all a utopia, then no one would know about hatred since everyone's supposed to be happy.

aaronw said...

alexd- i think society is already like mildred. for a long time......

alyssas said...

Stef- I don't think our society is turning out to be like Mildred. I think it is more that our society is turning out to be like Montag's society in minor ways like our dependence on technology.

Lukez said...

aaronw - I think that Faber wasn't a religious man, but he realized the importance of how this may be the only bible left in the entire country. He just loved books so much that he didn't want to see such a valuable book destroyed.

KatherineM said...

The comment in the inside circle about Clarisse being similar to Faber was very interesting! I really like what Nick said about Faber being his mentor and Clarisse sparking his interest. Clarisse got Montag interested in books and challenging the system, and then she disappeared. As soon as Clarisse disappeared in the books, Faber appeared. I think Faber will become a big part of the book, and he is going to help Montag challenge the system and try to change the society.

Javonm said...

Life is to sophisticated to describe in a 1,000 page, 8pt font, thesis of it. You couldn't describe life in an infinite number of words becuase life is infinite. Everyone lives and then dies, but during the living's path is completely different. Not one person leads the same life anywhere, because it is impossible, there are too many little details and even big details that no one can have the same life. People can have similar lives, but they willnever be the same. It is like the analogy of words to synonyms. Although words have synonyms that are nearly the same meaning, if they did have the same meaning why would you need two diffrent words to descrube the same thing??

SerenaL said...

Chelseas- I think that the sieve and the sand meant that the society is a sieve, and sand is any form of knowledge. It doesn't matter how much sand, or knowledge, you give to society, it will pass through it. Society has forgotten how to learn and comprehend and think. This is why Montag went to Faber, so that Montag could make his sieve into a bowl, to catch and enjoy the knowledge within books.

alexd said...

How can we relate Montag to Macbeth?

stefo said...

Javon - is striving for equality really not ok? Isn't what our country is based on? Achieving equailty? I believe that striving for equality is a good thing but complete equality is unattainable. Do you which do you think is more important? Financial equality or societal equality? Equality of the races or skin color? How far can you go in the striving for equaility can you go before every mans unalienable rights begin to be violated?

elisabethc said...

The sieve and the sand was a connection that Montag made to when he was younger. He was trying to fill the sieve up but everything kept going through the other end. This relates to the way that the society is in Montags time. If they ever have a thought it will fall right through and not stay with them. In other words, they are getting rid of books so that everyone is equal and so that no one can fill their minds with thoughts. Instead, it all falls through.

KatherineM said...

Chelseas, I was confused by the "sieve and the sand" as well.

Javonm said...

What do people think of similarites, or very similar things vs. the same, and how it aplies to words vs. synonyms to those words?? If you understand what I am saying, if not read my previous post and I was wandering what other people's thoughts are??

Lukez said...

Phoebe - I think that everything is fireproof to a degree. I think that the houses can stand small fires without being damaged but if the entire house was soaked in kerosine and then lit on fire, I don't think it matters how fireproof it is, it is still going to burn to the ground.

melissa m.o. said...

Aaron, it is my understanding that the philosophy and idea behind communism is that everyone is equal. Everyone makes the same amount of money, there are no class systems, everyone has equal everything and no one is smarter than anyone else. The govt. "takes care" of everything for everyone. I wonder if this is truly what a communist society looks like? Do you see parallels between the idea of communism and the book?

alyssas said...

In our last fishbowl we talked a lot about what role religon played in Montag's society. In this section of reading, I noticed that both Montag and Faber say "God" frequently. If there is only one bible left in their society, the one that Montag owns, are they still religious? or is it just the two of them that sat God a lot?

kristenw said...

lia- ya that's what i was thinking.


aaron- that's interesting about the firemen, you seem to be relating to what mrs. smith said about being different around different crowds you know.


elizabeth- so your saying that her uncle is like a human "book of everything" this is an interesting idea because you can't burn a person for having knowledge. this could turn into something.

alex- ya



amanda- ya thats what i've heard

elisabethc said...

Stefo- in our constitution it said that all men are created equal, which means that we should all have the same rights and that we should all be treated fairly. It does not mean that everyone has to think the same or do things the same as someone else. All of us are human, so we should all be treated equal but not be physically and mentally equal.

alexd said...

Javonm-
I completely agree with you about your comment about life..

I dont think the characters realize this though.

stefo said...

alexd- what I meant by society becoming like Mildred is are we satisfied by pretty lights and colors or are we strving to challenge our minds

Liap said...

Javonm-
I agree. There are such little details that make such big differences in our lives. Like if you stepped off of a curb three seconds later than someone walking next to you, they could get hit by a car and die, while you live.

alexd said...

stefo-
Ok that makes sense...... thanks for clarifying!

kristenw said...

aaron- idk about the taber not being religeous thing because i think he just couldn't belive Montag was doing that

Louiseb said...

I think that Ms. Smith brought up a really good point. Everything you see on TV that is considered inappropriate is in everryday life too. Parents could think that by not allowing their kids to watch R rated movies or listen to explicit songs that they are safe from the elements that they shouldn't see but the reality is that their kids could hear the words that they thought they were avoiding the next morning on the bus.

JohnB said...

I agree with Maddief in the circle when she said that books are SO much better than the movie. Having imagination and thought is what makes the books so good.

Javonm said...

Stef- it is a tough decision. I agree that striving for some equality in the world is good and that that is partly what we are on based on... but our minds are limited but infinite at the same time, the ideas that we can come up with are amazing... so with that thought it goes to sya the only probledm is although equality is good Stef, How do we know that the human kind will ever stop or that we will be able to put a limit on our strive when wh have reached that level you are talking about, by the way could you describe the level becaus I am not sure where that is at?

Javonm said...

Stef- it is a tough decision. I agree that striving for some equality in the world is good and that that is partly what we are on based on... but our minds are limited but infinite at the same time, the ideas that we can come up with are amazing... so with that thought it goes to sya the only probledm is although equality is good Stef, How do we know that the human kind will ever stop or that we will be able to put a limit on our strive when wh have reached that level you are talking about, by the way could you describe the level becaus I am not sure where that is at?

Lukez said...

stefo - I think that your right. everybody is satisfied by the cheap entertainment that the TV thing can offer them. Only a few of them don't want to have that happen, they want to think.

chelseas said...

I agree with Jose about people not knowing about what may happen, and that they feel safe beacuse of their ignorance. They are not realizing about what really goes on in the world.

elisabethc said...

alyssas- I don't think that they can have religion if they have one bible. They need to be taught what the bible says and they need to learn it. Just because they now obtain a bible does not mean that they are religious. Maybe if they read it later they could be religious people.

alyssas said...

We keep saying that Clarisse got hit by a car because the only explaination we have heard is from Mildred who said that she thought that Clarisse was hit by a car. Do we know that Clarosse acually did die from being hit by a car? Could something else have happened to her?

kristenw said...

louise- that's true, if parents wanted to completely not let there kids see or hear these things they would have to totaly isolate them from the whole modern world.

alexd said...

LouiseB-
i agree with you. instead of trying to block things from their kids, i think that parents should just let their kids be exposed to it so they are better prepared for the real world.

stefo said...

Does being exposed to violence desentitize people to violence or make violence an option to them?

KatherineM said...

I agree with what Maddie said in the inner circle. Parents try so hard to shelter their children from movies and televison that have bad language, but pretty much every day at school, I'm sure you could hear things that are just as bad, if not worse. I'm not trying to say that bad language is acceptable, but kids are going to hear these things sometime. You can't keep kids forever sheltered from real life.

aaronw said...

i can't remember does faber say he is not religious... i foreget...

Liap said...

I agree with Louiseb. Everything in an R movie can be seen or heard in real life. When I was little, I remember being at the mall and earing someone graphicly describe a horror movie, and I couln't sleep for like a week because of my imagination. Sorry dumb story but kind of relavent.

elisabethc said...

alyssas- good point about Clarisse. Maybe Mildred did not really know what happened to her. After all, doesn't Mildred have a really bad memory?

Louiseb said...

I agree with what Mark said in the circle, when things are sensored and banned so that kids cant see things that they shouldn't, the ban will only make kids want to see or hear that even more. It is the fact that they know that there is something that they shouldnt see that makes them want to see it so bad.

Lukez said...

alyssas - I don't really think that Clarisse got hit by a car. Her entire family dissapeared, they didn't all get hit by cars did they? So I think that something else happened.

Javonm said...

Alyssa that is a good thought I agree I don't think, especially with Mildred's ability to remember the death, that she died by car. I think tha was an official story to cover-up the governments interference in her life.

kristenw said...

aaron- yes he does say that when montags comes into his house and faber sees the bible he says he is not a religeous man

alyssas said...

Stef O.- I think that if kids are exposed to violence then they can become violent, but i believe that a majority of the kids exposed to violence won't become violent.

alexd said...

Alyssas-
we seem to just automatically assume that Mildreds idea was correct because that is pretty much the only explantaton that we are offered.

Liap said...

Louiseb- good point

Lukez-I agree. I think Clarisse and her family were "taken care of"

phoebef said...

alyssas-i think that clarisse was hit by a car, but i don think it was an accident. we also know that she was cremated, so that could mean that the government did something else to her and then burned her body so it woldnt be discovered.

elisabethc said...

alyssas- Remember the Colombine shootings? Both of those boys played all kinds of violent video games and look what they did. However, they probably had family problems or other things that were affecting their decisions. I think that the way you act really depends on how you grow up.

alyssas said...

Phoebe- How do you know that Clarisse was cremated?

Louiseb said...

Alex d and Luke z i agree there is no way that all of the people in clarisses family got hit by a car, there has to be some other explanation...

JohnB said...

Does Beatty know about Montag's secret? He's acting normal...almost too normal...

aaronw said...

phoebe- so do you think it was the gov't, the firemen, or both together that "took her out"?

Liap said...

Phoebef- Good point! If she was cremated then the gov't could have done a lot of things to her and then made it look like she got in a car accident.

meganu said...

I agree with Luke. I don't think Clarisse got hit by a car at all. I think that the government somehow found out that Clarisse and her family thought differently than everyone else. They actually sat down as a family and talked about anything they wanted. Just like in The Pedestrian, I think that Clarisse and her family were 'taken away' to some place so they can't convince anyone else to think differently. What the government doesn't know, however, is that Montag has started to think like Clarisse and he is challenging the system.

kristenw said...

alyssa- but also kids who don't watch violent things can also become violent.

JohnB said...

Clarisse was creamated?

Javonm said...

Phoebe interesting idea of the burning of her body instead of doins someting else to it like shoting her or something, made me think that the "firemen" are the government becuase of the burning of your analogy.

elisabethc said...

Montag and Faber talked about the possibility that Beatty could have been good and joined their side. He is a difficult character to decifer, and it is true that he acts a little to normal and flexible with the whole book thing.

amandah said...

John
Beatty is an older person in the book so he knowa about the past and also he's chief of the firehouse the government was bound to give him some imformation.

amandah said...

John
Beatty is an older person in the book so he knowa about the past and also he's chief of the firehouse the government was bound to give him some imformation.

phoebef said...

montag says at one point in the book that as he spoke clarisse was being burned. i would guess this was her body, not her house, or else he would be ore into it since clarisse was her neighbor.

alyssas said...

Elizabeth- I understand what you mean, but so many more kids were exposed to violence like they were, but those kids have never taken a violent action like the Columbine SHooters did.

stefo said...

In order for the revolution that Montag wants to occur revolves around books. To even begin to use books as tools to rebuild society one must understand the books. And that is taught at school. How can people revolt if there is no support and no one is able to teach? Is changing the system hopeless? it seems to me that this society is spirally downward into black nothingnes. No one knows what is on the other side. All we know is that it cannot be good

meganu said...

I agree with Alyssa. How do we know Clarisse was cremated? We don't even know for sure that she's dead.

alexd said...

I dont agree when people say that kids that are violent due to video games or movies because look at all of the other people that play those games and dont act violently.

I think it is something wrong in their mind or something that happened in their childhood.

Louiseb said...

I dont agree when people say that kids that play violent video games are violent in real life. I know many people that play games like that but would nevereven think about really doing things like that.

kristenw said...

alyssa- about clarisse, they could have always been caught with books.

Liap said...

Johnb- Wouldn't Beatty act anormal if he knew? I don't think he would even talk to Montag if he knew his secret.

alexd said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
stefo said...

Clara said that they should talk but they need a catalyst to make them want to. They are very social people but as clarisse said they aren't talking about anything

kristenw said...

john- how do you know clarisse was creamated????

Lukez said...

Meganu - I agree that they took Clarisse away so that she couldn't get other people to start thinking like her. I don't think that the government knows how quickly the ideas can spread through the public.

Liap said...

Sorry I meant ABnormal my bad

elisabethc said...

alyssa- I also know what you mean:) but I also said that the way they grow up had to effect things too. Or there could be other problems. I guess it really depends on who the person is...

KatherineM said...

I don't think playing violent video games means that the person playing the game will become a violent person. I think people ususally become violent because of seeing other violent people around them. People could just be following the example of violence they have seen in their life, or they have some sort of problem.

kristenw said...

john - nevermind you were asking a question. sorry

JohnB said...

Stefo-
Rebellion can always occur. Things can only be unrebellious if better ways are forgotten. And NOTHING is forgotten.

meganu said...

Kristenw-
That's very true! I didn't even think about that but we already know that Clarisse thought differently than everyone else. She and her family really could've been caught with books.

alyssas said...

Javon- That's an interesting point about that maybe the firemen are leaders of the government.

elisabethc said...

Johnb- what do you mean that "Nothing is forgotten"? I am sure that everyone forgets things now and then.

kristenw said...

pheobe- but how does montag know that clarisse is getting burned.

Liap said...

alyssas-If firemen were the leaders of the gov't then wouldn't Montag know? And if he knew we would to right?

phoebef said...

im sorry, i misunderstood the quote about clarisse being burned. We really dont know that she was cremated. sorry

JohnB said...

Liap, but Beatty said a fireman could 'slip up', but then they would have to burn the books they 'slipped up' with. But then he says if he doesn't, "...we'll burn them for him." Maybe Beatty knows and is waiting to see if Montag will burn them.

kristenw said...

megan- ya that's what i thought had happened. oooooooooo i just had an idea, ok so maybe mildred had turned them in and then she made up the car accident story to cover it.

kristenw said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Lukez said...

Johnb - I think that the people are rebelling. Its just that nobody really knows because there are so few that are doing it.

Louiseb said...

Liap- I think that the leaders are kind of umknown to everyone. It seems like the firemen are the leaders but that doesn't mean that they know it necessarily. SOmetime people have a lot more power over others than they are aware of.

stefo said...

javon- The level I am talking about is the society in F451 where people are ignorant and most of their rights are nonexistant and they don't even realize it

By the way thanks for everyone responding to my comments!!

alexd said...

Liap-
good point...

then if they are not actually the government then they are fore sure enforcers of some kind of leadership.

Liap said...

Johnb- Good point. Or maybe there's another fireman who has books that we don't know about?

elisabethc said...

kristen- I think that Mildred is too interested in herself and her "family" to take notice of what is going on around her. But you have a point. How did she know that Clarrise died in a car crash?

alyssas said...

Lia- Maybe the the firemen are kept in the dark by the fireman that are of a higher rank.

meganu said...

Kristen-
That would totally make sense! Maybe Mildred really does know more than what she is telling...

JohnB said...

Elizabethc-
People in general forget, of course. I was speaking in terms of passed down generations of memories. How can that be forgotten?

Liap said...

Alyssas-Good point. Beatty seems like he knows more than he's saying.

stefo said...

Beatty in the book talks about how funerals were sad so they were elminated. Now people are just taken away and ten minutes after their death they are cremated. What does this say about the society when even death becomes impersonal?

aaronw said...

kristen-
mildred would not do that because she cares too much about herself... and she wouldn't watch enough to turn her end

elisabethc said...

Johnb- no matter where you hear things or who tells you, I am sure that you will forget some things that you were told, but you are less likely to forget passed sown stories because I am sure that you hear them a lot more.

kristenw said...

megan- exactly maybe mildred wanted to know why montag talked about her so much so she went and checked it out then realized that they had books so she turned them in the made up the story about the car.

JohnB said...

Stefo-
Remember in History- "The Human Life is Expendable"

amyw said...

I was gone yesterday so here are my comments!

I think Mildred may have a secret desire, deep down, so deep that even she hasn't figured it out yet, to read the books. But she's so "content" and "happy" with life the way it is that she doesn't want anything to change. She also doesn't want to get into trouble, and this shows her cowardice. If you really want to challenge the system then you will take a risk.

Also, I found it very creepy about how even death became so impersonal. If you can't even show any emotion or hold a ceremony (a funeral) when someone dies, then what does this say about your society? What does this say about who you've become as a whole? This is a scary thought...

And talking about the violent movies and video games, I don't think that being exposed to them will make you violent. At this point it's all you. It's your choice whether you want to let it influence you to the extent that you use it as an example and act on it. And some people do, sadly.

And, how do we know for sure about Clarisse being cremated? We just know that she "disappeared." She might be dead; she might not. So we really don't know for sure if she was cremated or not.

And about the issue of keeping kids sheltered…sooner or later they're going to find out about it, so you might as well not be so overprotective. You don't want them to go wild of course but there's a fine line there. And like a lot of you said, the language in R-rated movies is stuff we hear every day at school.

My friend and I were talking about race yesterday and this made me think. Are there people of all ethnicities in this book, or is everyone just part of a master race? Like there's all white people? I don't want to offend anyone, I'm just wondering…

maddief said...

I think that in Montag's society happiness is normality. If you're different or think differently you worry about problems that average people wouldn't be concerned with. Montag has started to explore his mind and has started questioning his society, which causes him a lot more anxieties than Mildred who is content with the way things are. It goes back to what Mrs. Smith was saying, is it better to be content in a society where you are told what makes you happy, or being aware of the world's problems but doing something to change those problems and create your own happiness.