1. Would a man as boisterous as Beatty really be afraid of Clarisse? 2. What is the book Montag pulls out about? 3. Do you think that Mildred will start to think about the way she is living like Montag?
Tylerg- I think that anyone in the system would be afraid of someone who had radical ideas. Clasisse is challengin the system and Beatty doesn't like that because the system is beneficial for him.
I think Beatty might be intimidated by Clarisse, like macm said, because she challenges the system and that she's a distraction to one of his collegues (Montag).
The way she lives is the opposite to the way Beatty lives and the opposite of almost everything he's known. Naturally he'd be curious and intrigued by this no?
keke- That's a good thought. To Beatty it seems like Clarisse is turning Montag over to the dark side, after Beatty has taught him the way of the firemen.
tylerg - I honestly do not think that Mildred will start to think like Montag will, because she is almost an opposite of Clarisse. Also, I believe that the sea shells clamped on her ears represent how much she is really completely shut off from the real world and how she won't be influenced by anything and lets technology control he life.
Kekek- a agree i think that in a way he almost wishes he had what she had. Her and her family represents happiness and that soceity almost craves happiness.
Kekek- a agree i think that in a way he almost wishes he had what she had. Her and her family represents happiness and that soceity almost craves happiness.
I think that Beatty has just been inherintly taught to be afraid of rebelliion, simply because that is the way it has always been. Without this, he might start to question the system. This nepitism of ideas, the system would fail.
tylerg - I think that the only reason Beatty is afraid of Clarisse is that she makes his life seem worthless because it makes him feel so empty. It makes him afraid that maybe she is right and maybe what he is doing wrong. I honestly think that is why Clarisse scares them, she makes them question the society they have set up and the society is all that they have to hold onto.
Why does Beatty think that books offend people? I mean, yes there are some controversial books out there, but people have a choice whether or not they want to read a book. I just think that some people are lacking common sense here...
I dont think that mildred will start thinking about the way she is living because she is so shut down to the outside world that she wont think about it. She probley would just put in her ear pieces if the thought even came up. It seems like she wont let herself think.
at the end of the reading, when beatty came back to montag's house, what do you people think would have happened to montag if beatty came in and saw him with all the books on the floor surrounding him?
I agree wit whitneys, I don't think it's possible for Mildred to start to think like Montag does, she is too obsessed with technology. She wouldn't even turn the TV off when Montag was yelling at her, and I think she likes her "relatives" on the TV more than she likes Montag. I wonder how reading the books will affect her.
Whitneys- I totally agree! I think that although Mildred can't think for herself and just follows the crowd, she does have the "courage" to think for herself/the country when regarding Montag. I don't think that she will commit to reading the books. I think she's just going along with him for a day or two, but if it goes any further, she will definitly back down.
so about Clarrise and Beatty: I think that all human kind is afraid of change and things that are different. I think that Beatty just can't handle the way Clarrise is. She's just different and that must be weird to him.
hannahl-that completely makes sense. this whole society has been taight and raised never to challenge the system and this one girl jusy defies all of it.
What do you think planted the orignial reason that caused Montag to steal all the books?
on the conversation~ I think that maybe the whole thing with hands and stuff has a lot ot do with that the community how people just act, and don't take RESPONSIBILITY.
what do you guys think on the conversation with Beatty and Montag? i think that Beatty on the top of page 59 just sumerized why they are fireman. what do you huys think?
macm- I wouldn't really call it the dark side because she lives in a dark world, remember her house was lit up and it was a totally strange thing. I think that the world is a dark side and she was the good.
hannahl- That's a good thought. Do any of you think that mayby Beatty knew life the way it was before, but he likes the control, and doesn't want it to change? He even says to Montag, "Do you have a secret or something?" I think that there is more to Beatty than we are seeing on the surface.
mitchl- I don't think Beatty would have done anything if he had found Montag with all of the books on the floor. Remember when he said that if a fireman takes a book home, he has 24 to 48 hours to read it and then burn it, so Montag still has time. Beatty wouldn't be able to do anything to him for atleast a day.
mitchl- I don't think that eatty would have reported him because Montag is one of his prized firefighters and Beatty can't turn him in because then the other fighterd will ask questions about what happened to Montag and lose faith in Beatty.
katyj- No, i don't think that the sea shells are "brainwashing" Mildred. I think that they stop her from thinking, which i guess can be a form of brainwashing, but pretty much they are just taking her away from her real life. It's like her daydreaming. I think that it's kind of like the second story we read...what was the name?... where every time they thought something, they would hear something in their ear. I totally think that related being that it prevents her from thinking.
matt, i think that it can make you smarter to ask how, but if someone asks you to jump off a bridge, you wouldn't ask how, you would probably ask why, so both of those questions can make you smarter.
katyj-I think that would explain alot of things. Because she wears tem out of habit the government can send any sort of ideas or thoughts into her mind without her knowing it. It would be a little like 1984, with government twisting and manipulating people.
katyj - I don't think that the sea shells are brainwashing her, I think that it is more of a thing that the seashells are her life. She is letting them completely control her life because that is all she really does.
KATYJ, I do believe that the seashells do have some kind of influence on her. It reminds me of the Dumb Blonde joke where the dumb blonde walks into the hair cutter place wearing the earphones and she has to take them off and she dies. Then later the police find out that the earphones were telling her "breathe in, breathe out" so I feelshe kind of depends on them a little
Whitneys, I was super confused about the concussion too. My guess would be that a concussion was like a metaphor to explain how his brain was having all these confusing thoughts going through his head, and not know how to stop it.
alexf - I think they're supposed to take place of dreams. Dreams expose your wildest imagination, revealing your deepest thoughts. The government probably doesn't want this.
morgant- i agree! why would e be saying books are pointless and offensive when like Montag said a person could have spent their whole life writting that book. I really think that Montag is on to something!!
kristina h- I think that Beatty suspected that Montag was having second thoughts about books and stuff. Montag and Mildred were fighting, and Beatty acted like nothing was happening. So, maybe Beatty knows that all firefighters go through something like this. But... I don't know...
I agree with lesliel- like i said before, she's practically adicted the the sea shells. She listens to them every second of the day, and if she isn't, she's playing her role in the TV show. Do you think the TV show will have any influence later in the book?
mattw-thats a great point! the seashells do also prevent her from daydreaming. Like before, daydreaming mean that you are thinking, and the government...or maybe just society?????... doesn't want her to think./daydream
Yeah I agree he did state that all firemen go through this at one point and he then gave him that whole speech/lecture thing.So I wonder what stops the firemen why dont they continue on their path of questioning.
when beatty tells montag that every fireman goes through what he is going through, do you think that beatty went through this himself, and if so do you think the person that pushed him through it given him the same speech.
Morgant- It justs seems natural that all firemen would go through a time where they were curious about what was actually in books. Beatty said that it was perfectly normal, but you have to burn the book after 24 to 48 hours, or the other firemen will come and burn the book for you. Montag can't help being curious, he's been burning books for ten years and never really knew what they were about.
mitchl - good point about the whole how and why. Cause I agree that they are both important. However, Because it's more difficult to understand why something happens because someone can't just roll off facts to you, they have to go indepth and explain everything and then you have to think about it and understand it in your own mind.
Whitneys- Part of me thinks that the reason that he showed the books to Mildred was because I think that ever since Clarrise said the thing about him not being inlove he wants so bad for Mildred to understand him. Part of me thinks that she DOES understand him but her mind is so currupt and so crowded with everything the government has done to her.
alexf - i guess your right. Society doessn't want to step out of their "comfort zone", because they're used to a certain pattern or scedule or routine.
It seems that Mildred pays more attention to the seashell and the parlor families then Montag. How is prefering the subsitute to life over life better? Why does the government want this?
I HAVE A HUGE QUESTION! Why do you think that Beatty "HAD" to know all the information? He quoted that line from "Most firecaptains have to be" referring to have to be knowledgeable in books
mitchs- Yeah. That's what I was trying to get to. Beatty knew that Montag had a book, and was warning him to sort out his thoughts before they came and burned the book themselves.
alexf- I can connect that to a book I read that is in the Pendragon series. In the book, the tv shows, artwork and literature are all dull to prevent people from thinking about what life could be like or overthrowing the system. Just like mildred, the people were in a trance and thought they were happy, except for a few free thinkers like Clarisse and now Montag.
catem- I like how you explained the concussion thing! I did not catch on to that at first so thank you! It relates back to Macbeth. Macbeth has these hallucinations and Montag has a concussion.
I think that the government might be censoring what is played on the seashells and kind of inpounding stuff into her mind. Because when you listen to something over and over again it get stuck in your head and you start believing it so is that what the government is playing in her seashells. Are they kind of controlling her toughts through that?
What exactly do you think the seashells are telling Midred? Do you think that maybe Mildred might be really smart and is forced to be dumbed down by these? it seems as though Montag remembers a time when Mildred would have loved to help him with this adventure. Do you think that that machine might have taken more than her saddness away? How many times has she had to go have that machine put on her? How much of her is Mildred, and how much is a machine? Do you think this new adventure could bring the old Mildred out? Any ideas?
kristinah- What Beatty said stops the firemen from questioning and reading books is that they realize that books can be offensive. He said Uncle Tom's Cabin was offensive to white people and other book were offensive to other groups of people. People in this world have been taught that everything must be politically correct, and because are not, they must be banned. That's why they stop questioning.
mattw- i don't think that anyone can make a book anymore. Not with all the book burning and the high risk of someone ratting you out. Also, the authors probably don't want to waste time for their book to just be burned.
it seemed like Beatty absolutley knew that Montag had books. the way he talks to Montag "Every firemansooner or later hits this. They only need understanding, to know how the wheels run."-pg.53. did anybody else notice that?
morgant- Beatty guessed that Montag would be sick that day, so he showed up at his house. So he obviously knows that people other than Montag have gone through this. Do you think that maybe beatty went through this exact thing, and that, maybe at one time, he was actually interested in books?
Morgant- I know what you mean that he has to know the rule book, but in that quote, he was quoting the line that the lady shouted out as her house burnt down. Why would he NEED to know that?
kristinah- That is a really good question. I think that the government is involved in this book way more than we know. I think the government has lots of triks up their sleeve... (open for interpretation =D)
catem - THANK YOU! That does make sense, I think that there is a LOT of metaphorical writing in this book. So that gives me a totally new perspective. Because that is true, he is thinking SOO many different things and he doesn't understand them because he has never been forced to think for himself. But the only thing is that was something that happend in the past, not in the present...so...I don't know...maybe that was just the point that he realized something was completely wrong.
ryanm- It was like Beatty was giving Montag the choice to read the books, like he was certain that after one relapse to reading the books he would leave them alone, like it had happened many times before.
Did anyone else notice more when Montag was asking Mildred if she's seen Clarisse?
It was like Mildred isn't used to thinking at all. Everytime she's second guess herself or say how sure she is of one think but never a definate answer. I was thinking that her mind has been so screwed up over time that she can never be sure of anything.
I looked up F451 on wikipedia, and it had a short interview or something with Bradbury. It said that he said the book wasn't about censorship at all, but how TV is mind numbing, and books are being replaced. I don't know how true that is though.
selenam- the government wants them to replace real life with television or fake life because the tv thinks for you and the governmetn can control what is going on, it replaces real life like mildred refers to it as her relatives and in real life you have to think about problem they are not solved for you by other people.
macm- That's exactly what I mean! Beatty knew Montag had the book, and he was basically saying that Montag, you better read the book before we come and burn it!
alexf- i know what you are saying. It almost seems that the men who are firemen are almost smarter. It seems like the firemen use that 24-48 hour book thing to their advantage. I mean Montag was obviously is not the only fireman who has taken books. what do you guys think about thhis who 24-48 hour book thing.
MorganT/Kristinah--- I disagree. I don't think that the government is very involved. First of all, it doens't mention them at all and then Beatty just talks about the HUGE minority. He didn't really mention the government, so i don't think that they have a huge role in the book. **Not directed to you** but, why does peopel always assume its the government?
mattw- You did some research! That's a good point too! Mildred is definitely more into all of her TVs and her technology to concentrate on her relationships with people.
ok so question... what do you think will happen with the Hound? The author obviously will have some purpose for him. Do you think he will come back into the story? If so how?
Mitchl~ It could be possible that people are still creating books, or if not actually writing them, copying them for future generations. I mean there must have been some way for that lady to get the books. Maybe there is like an underground society that is going against the government, trying to get people to think. Because there is still people around like Clarrisse and her family.
i think tha tv is definatly mind numbing, like if i watch a tv show,and after you ask me what had happened, i have no idea at all. Could that be what screwed up Mildreds brain?
alexf- Well, I do see your point of view... A lot of people would like to blame stuff like that on the government. To tell you the truth, I'm not quite sure why people always blame the government. I was just kind of saying that the government has made this way of life if you know what I mean...
The last few lines of page 68 are, "What does it mean? It doesn't mean anything! The Captain was right!" "Here now," said Montag. "We'll start over again, at the beginning." This shows that Montag is different from his wife. He wants to keep reading, she wants to burn them. How did Montag become this way? Why is he different from the other firemen?
alexf - I dont know, but you make a good point. It might not be the government. We just want to blame them. It's almost like blaming your hands. I think it's because the government is like "THE MAN"....
ryan- no beatty probably doesn't know about the books, b/c he told montag he's got 24 hours to burn them, and he's been collecting the books for over a year.
ryanm- I don't think that Beatty knows about the books in the ventilator, i think that he can just sense the tension and automatically assumes that he has books...after all, many firemen have gone through it and he probably thinks its normal. I also don't think that Beatty is looking down on him, i think he still likes Montag, and can feel what he is going through. What do you think?
Dawniellen - hmm...I guess that makes sense. Because I know that when i have something that is totally burning inside of me or that totally confuses me, I have to tell someone or else I would totally EXPLODE! However I usually go to that person that I feel most comfortable with or know the best. So I guess Montag feels like he is closest to Mildred now that Clarisse is gone, despite how far he feels from her. Also it could show how people in this society truly have lost all connection because how easily Montag shares such a dark secret with someone who he wouldn't even cry for if she died. Sorry for the long comments. haha
Continuing the conversation from the discussers, if the country is at war and all of the people are glued to their TVs then who is fighting in the army? Do they have robots?
maddisonm- I think the hound will definately show up again when ever Montag walks into the station. Is the dog programmed to sense the smell of book(paper and ink)?
ryanm- I don’t think that Beatty necessarily knows about the books in the ventilator, but for some reason I think someone else does. What do you think?
alexf- good point. Maybe because the government always seems to want to intervene in peoples lives and take control. It is like the governent is always power hungury and also hungery for a perfect country.
ryanm- I don't know, he definitely knows he has one, but maybe he's never had a firefighter with such extreme thoughts like Montag. Beatty doesn't know that Montag's been influenced by Clarisse and is now thiking way differently than any other fighter. He probably thinks the situation will play out like every other time, which I don't think it will.
selenam-he's different from the other firefighters because he wants to know more about books. The only concern the other firefighters have is burning them.
Alexf- Beatty might have guessed that Montag had books when the Hound started to dislike him. Maybe he saw Montag's encounter with the Hound and realized that he was probably hiding something, which he guessed was books.
I can totally see what everyone is saying. We tend to blame the government because they are usually the causer. I just think that its ironic that we are always blaming the government when half the time, it's the public's fault!! Oh well! Good thing i'm not in politics!! :)
whitneys- i feel the same way, if i have something i need to get out, i go to a trusted person, like Montag trusts his wife probably more than anyone. but with this system, it doesnt seem like there is any trust in the world.
selena - whenever someone wants to reform, I think they have to start completely over. If you have a single trace of the previous system, there's a risk it could come back.
personally, I think that was a really good comment.
I agree with becky. One person said, "Oh! This book is offensive to blacks! Let's burn it!" Now everybody can't read or even have books. It kind of ruins it for everybody.
selenam- he became this way, i think because of clarisse without her he probley would have never started questioning. But he did already have all of those books. When did this start? Why, and how is he different from all other firemen. When did he decide to take a book?
Okay, on the conversation, and I think that one of the reasons that there isn't any contreversy over things like ladies being burned with there books is because they don't have any feelings. I mean death is an accepted fact of life. someone dies, and they are gone in ten minutes, so that all of the families won't have to be sad.
maddisonm- I do think that the hound was an important aspect for us to understand kind of how the society works and to see where the firemen are at right now, but I don't think that it is super important and that it will really change the whole plot. I think that the dog will come back in small parts but I don't think that he will have some big role. It was more added to bring a little more perspective for the reader.
mitchs - oh...that is true. I didn't realize. Just another example of how technology has totally replaced real relationships with people. Because she considers them her "family", yet the only way they talk to eachother it through lines they are given from somewhere...but WHERE? WHO RUNS THIS SOCIETY?
QUESTION- does anyone think that if clarisse was still alive and still talked with montag, would montag share the books he has with clarisse, or would he even tell her about them and just keep them still hidden.
ryanm- While one person can spoil a privelege for everyone, I don't think it's right for books to banned because a certain group objects to them. I don't understand how people can become so non-confrontational that they don't want any books that could possibly be offensive to any group?
catem-i agree! I think that it's odd and harsh that no one in this book cares if other people die? What do you think will happen in the future? Do you think that people will get over death in the future?
mitchl- That is a really good question. I would think that Montag would share them with her. I get the impression from the two of them that Montag would be totally safe telling Clarisse about them.
on the inner circle there has to be a cause for the people to stop challenging the system to not like books. When and why did this type of society start? Because if it wasnt illegal to have books and you get imprisoned and they get burned if you have them then why would people want them? The people would probley have more books if they could. I wonder if more people have books hidden like montag did.
katem-where you saying that the people in the book are basically emotionless?
If you are I agree. They can demonstrate feelings but it doesn't seem like there's much behind it. When it comes between respecting a life and doing a job, the job would come first.
whitneys- although, maybe hard to believe yet not that suprising is the people are American i think, because on pg 58, Beatty references the Constitution
alexf- In this society, death may just be a lah-dee-dah kind of thing. You never know what the future will hold, and these people may not even love eachother, so if they die it's not a big deal.
ryanm- I did notice that Beatty just knew that Montag had books. I think he knew because of the questions Montag was asking and how Mildred almost pulled it out from under the pillow. And I think that Beatty sees this step for Montag as normal and typical and he just assumes that since he has reached this point, he has taken a book or 2 to really see about what books have to offer.
mitchl- I think that Montag would have gladly told Clarisse about his books, but i have a feeling that Clarisse didn't need any more books. I think that she had already read some, or at least thought so much that she didn't want to break the law just to read others' ideas. I think that she would have been proud and asked questions, but for some reason i don't think she was much of a "law breaker" Does anyone else feel this way?
I've had an epiphany.... People love their technology so much because it will never offend them. Friends will inevitabley disagree with you at some point, point you can change the channel to your taste. you can't change your friends channel. its like you can pick your nose, you can pick your friends, but you cant pick your friends nose. I don't know why books are different. Maybe because they last so much longer.
catem- going way back up you asked "What do you think planted the original reason that caused Montag to steal all the books?" and I think it might be Clarisse that really made him start wondering about the world and happiness and firemen. I mean the first few pages of the book is just about Montag and how he loves to burn and then after he meets Clarisse you see him start to see his perspective on life change.
Kristenh, I have a theory on firemen, and books (it could be completely wrong). I think that maybe from there childhood, that all firemen had a rebellious spirit. As indicated by Beatty, at all times, firemen have a feeling of regret, and sadness for the previous things that they had done. And I can't think of anything that would make me not want to read books, more than burning them, because things that are burned are obviosly bad... right? So maybe it is to control the firemen from becoming a rebel.
mitchl- I definitly think that montag would share the books with clarisse. Maybe that is part of why he is so concerned with where she is. He wants to show her his newly stollen book. He want to share them with her because she would understand and be interested in them. Not like mildred who doesnt care and just wants to get back to her "life" and burn the books.
Ryanm - I thought the british had a consitution. and if they don't then maybe they just took the American ideas and claimed it as their own, because there's no proof otherwise
macm- i agree with you saying that they didn't really love eachother so death was not that big. What does everyone think will happen in the future. Will death be ignored, blown out of proportion, or kept the same?
Maddisonm, do you think that he really loved to burn books, or do you think that he was TOLD that he loved to burn books? If what you said was true, then why would he collect books before he met Clarrisse?
I was wondering, when Montag said he was "sick" he had chills and fever at first but after that was he really sick or just reacting to the womans death? Wouln't a society with mechanical dogs have a wonder drug for everything? Maybe after seeing his wife in her stupor he is afraid to take drugs?
Catem- I think that is a great point. To go along with that I think that these people have gotten so used to death and that death doesn't seem to change their lives. These people seem to have become totally self centered and if someone else dies, it doesn't really matter to them anymore, there life hasn't really changed. And it seems that death happens fairly often so it gets hard to continue greiving, and the more something happens and becomes a regular reality, they lose the sensitivity for that aspect.
It is interesting that so far there is nothing about the society’s government. Do they have a government? What is running this society? Who chooses job? Who is behind all this madness!!
mitchs - I've never thought of that. My guess would be robots. Or maybe it's like the cold war, and there's no violence, just a lot of boycotting stuff and an arms race or something. But then why would they need weapons?
Mattw- good point I think that books are different because you can choose which ones you read but you cant choose what is in that book and what is in that book might offend you so they dont want you to read them. It might cause controversy and they dont want that (at least it seems)
catem- I would guess that he was told that he loved to burn books. But are we sure that he collected those 20 books before he met Clarisse? He might have collected them during the few weeks after he met Clarisse, but before Beatty came to his house.
mitchl- i think that there are real people fighting in the war, but i have a feeling that no one cares anymore. That sounds really bad, but i think that the society just kind of ignores it. Maybe it is because by this time, the US had gone into so many wars that its no big deal anymore. If so, that would be HORRIBLE!!!!!!
i just had a thought. ylu know how in Salem they put like random people on trial, and then burned them for being withces? Well someone said way up there that all things that are burned are bad, and i thought of the Salem witch trails, and so i thought tha tmaye not all books are offensive but since some are they must all be burned, like in Salem, most of the women who were burned were normal god fearing women.
when beatty is talking to montag, and he asks if montag will show up on one of the late shifts later that night, and montag replies with a maybe, why is beatty so shocked? is it because for everyone else they totally understand why books are burned after that talk or some other reason?
alexf-wouldn't that depend on the person who's dying and what kind of life they lead to figure into what kind of people they knew.
Like, I may not think the death of my distant cousin is so sad, but to her mother it could be the worst thing in the world.
In the book, although people are pretty ignorant about truly loving in a family and everything, they still know how to love. Mildred seems to love her alternate tv family so there's proof that they can.
I agree with rya. The people not watching TV or not into all of this technology, they are the ones thinking for themselves. Mildred on the other hand is using the technology to distract her from all the things that she doesn't want to think about.
on the conversation circle, i think Mildred is an epitomy of the people in this society, trying to surround themselves with "family" and have a comfort zone where they dont have to do anything.
mattw- Maybe there are some Americans who are allowed to read books and are educated by the government. There could be a secret army of educated individuals fighting this war. But the general public would be completely oblivious to what was going on.
keke- Yeah but is that real love or just an enjoyment of company love. Like if her TV went away she would be sad but is it sad like the sad we are when our cousin dies??
kekek- I see what you are saying, but I mean, like, would your close family cry in this book. Montag said that he wasn't sure if he'd cry if Mildred died. Will this happen in the future?????/?????????
catem- that is a very interesting point!! when you read the first few pages you would think that he at heart really loved to burn. but know what you are saying was he being told to love to burn? He grew up surrounded by firemen so maybe right from the start you are told what you will be and what you will like and what is what. this goes back to my question about the society’s "government"
remember our last discussion when we were talking about who runs the government? well i think that maybe Clarrisse isn't dead, maybe she was taken to be educated and to eventually run the government.
macm- That is a good point on how in this society, they must have mirale pills. But I don't think that they have one for deppression because, like we saw with Mildred, she would never need an anti-depression pill, she is happy and would never try to take kill her self. The people will never have to chance to realize that they need to take a pill to try and change their life-style.This cycle could continue forever. These people are oblivious!
About the technology thing- What if the tv is actually making people docile through some visual stimulant? Did you guys hear about the tv show in japan that gave peopole seizures? It would be like that only with a different effect.
kristinah- I think it could be either. At that point in the book, for all she knew the tv would flip on again in the future and she'd see them again whereas with the loss of a close person there's no chance to see them again unless you're Macbeth ;)
on page 52, i think Montag has a valid point on every once in a while, you need a good bothering. because in this society no one expirences a bad spot in their life and look how everything has turned out. However strange it may seem, stress here and there is actually healthy for society. Does any one else agree?
Morgant- I think that like it was wayyyyyy back then, Montag and Mildred married young and didn't truly know what love was. Maybe they were pressured into it...others could be saying that its socially correct to be married. You're an outcast if youre not. At one point they were probably in love, but i don't think they are at this point in time.
morgant- I saw it on some talk show. It's called pakka-pakka syndrome and it happens when certain colors -mainly blue and red- are broadcast at certain speeds. The flashing colors trigger som thing in the brain.
Good point Mitchs. If he did bring home all those books in that short of a time, don't you think that someone would have noticed? But I don't think that he started collecting the books after he met Clarrisse, because on page ten, says,"He stood looking up at the ventilator grille in the hall and suddenly remembered what lay behind the grille, something that seemed to peer down at him right now." This was right after he first met Clarrisse, (like five minutes after) so he clearly had at least one book before he met her.
it said there was an underground society of free thinkers led by a man named granger. I didn't read any further, but I think they might be the "opposing side"....
To what whitneys and mitchl and some other people have said, I think that if Clarisse would have been around for a little while longer, Montag would have shared his books with her. He wasn't ready to share this secret because he wasn't totally sure about these books, if he should even read them. He needed to have some stable ground before he shared this with anyone else, and with what Beatty said, this gave him reassurance that he wants to find out what the community is hiding.
ryanm- I agree that people do need to be bothered every once in a while because otherwise life would get borring, we would have no challenges, no reason to keep going in life because we already know what is going to happen. It wouldn't be something to cherrish and enjoy, kind of like the life in 451.
yeah, Macm, I think that is really neat. It really makes people wonder, are we being controled, even now and not know it? Could this be the thing prevented the system to be challenged?
catem- Yeah,like did you know that certain foods have chemicals in them that fool your brain into thinking that its not full? So you just keep eating and eating....
alexf- wow that is interesting! death really does not seem like a big deal in this book. will it be like that in the future? It seems like even in our society today death is seen as "scary" and we try to eliminate it from our lives. Also with marriages back then people did not really love each other but had pre-arranged marriages. Now in this futuristic book it doesn't really seem like Mildred and Montag love each other. Also in our society not ALL people are marring for love. Is history repeating?
alexf- wow that is interesting! death really does not seem like a big deal in this book. will it be like that in the future? It seems like even in our society today death is seen as "scary" and we try to eliminate it from our lives. Also with marriages back then people did not really love each other but had pre-arranged marriages. Now in this futuristic book it doesn't really seem like Mildred and Montag love each other. Also in our society not ALL people are marring for love. Is history repeating?
maddisonm - good point. History does supposedly repeat itself, but I thought htat just applied to politics and wars. I'm pretty sure the marriages in the future aren't pre-arranged, but maybe they marry just because that's the way life's always been. your born, go to school, graduate, get a job, marry, have kids, grow old, and die. History is repeating, but for different reasons.
192 comments:
1. Would a man as boisterous as Beatty really be afraid of Clarisse?
2. What is the book Montag pulls out about?
3. Do you think that Mildred will start to think about the way she is living like Montag?
Tylerg- I think that anyone in the system would be afraid of someone who had radical ideas. Clasisse is challengin the system and Beatty doesn't like that because the system is beneficial for him.
I think Beatty might be intimidated by Clarisse, like macm said, because she challenges the system and that she's a distraction to one of his collegues (Montag).
The way she lives is the opposite to the way Beatty lives and the opposite of almost everything he's known. Naturally he'd be curious and intrigued by this no?
keke- That's a good thought. To Beatty it seems like Clarisse is turning Montag over to the dark side, after Beatty has taught him the way of the firemen.
tylerg - I honestly do not think that Mildred will start to think like Montag will, because she is almost an opposite of Clarisse. Also, I believe that the sea shells clamped on her ears represent how much she is really completely shut off from the real world and how she won't be influenced by anything and lets technology control he life.
I am just testing to get it going so yeah this is not meant to mean anything.
Kekek- a agree i think that in a way he almost wishes he had what she had. Her and her family represents happiness and that soceity almost craves happiness.
Kekek- a agree i think that in a way he almost wishes he had what she had. Her and her family represents happiness and that soceity almost craves happiness.
I think that Beatty has just been inherintly taught to be afraid of rebelliion, simply because that is the way it has always been. Without this, he might start to question the system. This nepitism of ideas, the system would fail.
tylerg - I think that the only reason Beatty is afraid of Clarisse is that she makes his life seem worthless because it makes him feel so empty. It makes him afraid that maybe she is right and maybe what he is doing wrong. I honestly think that is why Clarisse scares them, she makes them question the society they have set up and the society is all that they have to hold onto.
Why does Beatty think that books offend people? I mean, yes there are some controversial books out there, but people have a choice whether or not they want to read a book. I just think that some people are lacking common sense here...
I dont think that mildred will start thinking about the way she is living because she is so shut down to the outside world that she wont think about it. She probley would just put in her ear pieces if the thought even came up. It seems like she wont let herself think.
at the end of the reading, when beatty came back to montag's house, what do you people think would have happened to montag if beatty came in and saw him with all the books on the floor surrounding him?
I agree wit whitneys, I don't think it's possible for Mildred to start to think like Montag does, she is too obsessed with technology. She wouldn't even turn the TV off when Montag was yelling at her, and I think she likes her "relatives" on the TV more than she likes Montag. I wonder how reading the books will affect her.
Whitneys- I totally agree! I think that although Mildred can't think for herself and just follows the crowd, she does have the "courage" to think for herself/the country when regarding Montag. I don't think that she will commit to reading the books. I think she's just going along with him for a day or two, but if it goes any further, she will definitly back down.
so about Clarrise and Beatty: I think that all human kind is afraid of change and things that are different. I think that Beatty just can't handle the way Clarrise is. She's just different and that must be weird to him.
hannahl-that completely makes sense. this whole society has been taight and raised never to challenge the system and this one girl jusy defies all of it.
this is just a random tought but do you think that the seashells are brainwahing Mildred?
I think Beatty was also in the same boat as Montag, because he seems very knowledgable and it appears as if he speaks from expirence
Okay here is a new question: Why did he show Mildred the books? I have the feeling that she is just going to turn her back on him.
Also, what was the whole deal with the Concussion?
What do you think planted the orignial reason that caused Montag to steal all the books?
on the conversation~ I think that maybe the whole thing with hands and stuff has a lot ot do with that the community how people just act, and don't take RESPONSIBILITY.
1. Does it make you smarter to ask "how" instead of "why"?
2. Which is more important to know?
3. Is Clarisse "smart"?
what do you guys think on the conversation with Beatty and Montag? i think that Beatty on the top of page 59 just sumerized why they are fireman. what do you huys think?
macm- I wouldn't really call it the dark side because she lives in a dark world, remember her house was lit up and it was a totally strange thing. I think that the world is a dark side and she was the good.
hannahl- That's a good thought. Do any of you think that mayby Beatty knew life the way it was before, but he likes the control, and doesn't want it to change? He even says to Montag, "Do you have a secret or something?" I think that there is more to Beatty than we are seeing on the surface.
I agree with Alexf, i feel as though Mildred is fake. She's not really loyal to her husband, much like lady Macbeth.
mitchl- I don't think Beatty would have done anything if he had found Montag with all of the books on the floor. Remember when he said that if a fireman takes a book home, he has 24 to 48 hours to read it and then burn it, so Montag still has time. Beatty wouldn't be able to do anything to him for atleast a day.
I think montag would have been arrested and put in jail and his books burned if he was caught with all of the books out on the floor.
mitchl- I don't think that eatty would have reported him because Montag is one of his prized firefighters and Beatty can't turn him in because then the other fighterd will ask questions about what happened to Montag and lose faith in Beatty.
katyj- No, i don't think that the sea shells are "brainwashing" Mildred. I think that they stop her from thinking, which i guess can be a form of brainwashing, but pretty much they are just taking her away from her real life. It's like her daydreaming. I think that it's kind of like the second story we read...what was the name?... where every time they thought something, they would hear something in their ear. I totally think that related being that it prevents her from thinking.
matt, i think that it can make you smarter to ask how, but if someone asks you to jump off a bridge, you wouldn't ask how, you would probably ask why, so both of those questions can make you smarter.
katyj-I think that would explain alot of things. Because she wears tem out of habit the government can send any sort of ideas or thoughts into her mind without her knowing it. It would be a little like 1984, with government twisting and manipulating people.
katyj - I don't think that the sea shells are brainwashing her, I think that it is more of a thing that the seashells are her life. She is letting them completely control her life because that is all she really does.
whitneys- i think he showed Mildred the books because he felt he needed to show someone the books, and who better than his wife?
KATYJ, I do believe that the seashells do have some kind of influence on her. It reminds me of the Dumb Blonde joke where the dumb blonde walks into the hair cutter place wearing the earphones and she has to take them off and she dies. Then later the police find out that the earphones were telling her "breathe in, breathe out" so I feelshe kind of depends on them a little
kristinah- I meant the dark side to Beatty. To us her way is more civilized, but to Beatty she is a threat to the precious system.
Whitneys, I was super confused about the concussion too. My guess would be that a concussion was like a metaphor to explain how his brain was having all these confusing thoughts going through his head, and not know how to stop it.
CONNECTION!!!!! i think that Beatty is like Jack in Lord of the Flies becaus he likes power and he doesnt want anyone to usurp that power.
alexf - I think they're supposed to take place of dreams. Dreams expose your wildest imagination, revealing your deepest thoughts. The government probably doesn't want this.
morgant- i agree! why would e be saying books are pointless and offensive when like Montag said a person could have spent their whole life writting that book. I really think that Montag is on to something!!
kristina h- I think that Beatty suspected that Montag was having second thoughts about books and stuff. Montag and Mildred were fighting, and Beatty acted like nothing was happening. So, maybe Beatty knows that all firefighters go through something like this. But... I don't know...
I agree with lesliel- like i said before, she's practically adicted the the sea shells. She listens to them every second of the day, and if she isn't, she's playing her role in the TV show. Do you think the TV show will have any influence later in the book?
mattw-I don't think Clarisse is really "smart". She just knows alot about the past and about people in general.
Really, it depends on how you define smart.
k see ya guys my computers going to die =[
I wonder if anybodies written a book recently...?
mattw-thats a great point! the seashells do also prevent her from daydreaming. Like before, daydreaming mean that you are thinking, and the government...or maybe just society?????... doesn't want her to think./daydream
Yeah I agree he did state that all firemen go through this at one point and he then gave him that whole speech/lecture thing.So I wonder what stops the firemen why dont they continue on their path of questioning.
mattw- What do you mean? Like, in 451?
when beatty tells montag that every fireman goes through what he is going through, do you think that beatty went through this himself, and if so do you think the person that pushed him through it given him the same speech.
Morgant- It justs seems natural that all firemen would go through a time where they were curious about what was actually in books. Beatty said that it was perfectly normal, but you have to burn the book after 24 to 48 hours, or the other firemen will come and burn the book for you. Montag can't help being curious, he's been burning books for ten years and never really knew what they were about.
kristina- They probably just accept that it is a way of life, and forget their important questions.
mitchl - good point about the whole how and why. Cause I agree that they are both important. However, Because it's more difficult to understand why something happens because someone can't just roll off facts to you, they have to go indepth and explain everything and then you have to think about it and understand it in your own mind.
Whitneys- Part of me thinks that the reason that he showed the books to Mildred was because I think that ever since Clarrise said the thing about him not being inlove he wants so bad for Mildred to understand him. Part of me thinks that she DOES understand him but her mind is so currupt and so crowded with everything the government has done to her.
alexf - i guess your right. Society doessn't want to step out of their "comfort zone", because they're used to a certain pattern or scedule or routine.
It seems that Mildred pays more attention to the seashell and the parlor families then Montag. How is prefering the subsitute to life over life better? Why does the government want this?
I HAVE A HUGE QUESTION! Why do you think that Beatty "HAD" to know all the information? He quoted that line from "Most firecaptains have to be" referring to have to be knowledgeable in books
mitchs- Yeah. That's what I was trying to get to. Beatty knew that Montag had a book, and was warning him to sort out his thoughts before they came and burned the book themselves.
alexf- I can connect that to a book I read that is in the Pendragon series. In the book, the tv shows, artwork and literature are all dull to prevent people from thinking about what life could be like or overthrowing the system. Just like mildred, the people were in a trance and thought they were happy, except for a few free thinkers like Clarisse and now Montag.
catem- I like how you explained the concussion thing! I did not catch on to that at first so thank you! It relates back to Macbeth. Macbeth has these hallucinations and Montag has a concussion.
I think that the government might be censoring what is played on the seashells and kind of inpounding stuff into her mind. Because when you listen to something over and over again it get stuck in your head and you start believing it so is that what the government is playing in her seashells. Are they kind of controlling her toughts through that?
alex- He is the fire chief, so he has to be the one to reinforce all the rules, so he has to know the rule book.
What exactly do you think the seashells are telling Midred? Do you think that maybe Mildred might be really smart and is forced to be dumbed down by these? it seems as though Montag remembers a time when Mildred would have loved to help him with this adventure. Do you think that that machine might have taken more than her saddness away? How many times has she had to go have that machine put on her? How much of her is Mildred, and how much is a machine? Do you think this new adventure could bring the old Mildred out? Any ideas?
margan - ya sorry. is it illegal to write a book at all? even a "how to manual"?
kristinah- What Beatty said stops the firemen from questioning and reading books is that they realize that books can be offensive. He said Uncle Tom's Cabin was offensive to white people and other book were offensive to other groups of people. People in this world have been taught that everything must be politically correct, and because are not, they must be banned. That's why they stop questioning.
mattw- i don't think that anyone can make a book anymore. Not with all the book burning and the high risk of someone ratting you out. Also, the authors probably don't want to waste time for their book to just be burned.
it seemed like Beatty absolutley knew that Montag had books. the way he talks to Montag "Every firemansooner or later hits this. They only need understanding, to know how the wheels run."-pg.53. did anybody else notice that?
morgant- Beatty guessed that Montag would be sick that day, so he showed up at his house. So he obviously knows that people other than Montag have gone through this. Do you think that maybe beatty went through this exact thing, and that, maybe at one time, he was actually interested in books?
Morgant- I know what you mean that he has to know the rule book, but in that quote, he was quoting the line that the lady shouted out as her house burnt down. Why would he NEED to know that?
kristinah- That is a really good question. I think that the government is involved in this book way more than we know. I think the government has lots of triks up their sleeve... (open for interpretation =D)
Oh! alex- Maybe he went through that same period of question that Montag is going through, and read that book or something. Maybe that's it...
catem - THANK YOU! That does make sense, I think that there is a LOT of metaphorical writing in this book. So that gives me a totally new perspective. Because that is true, he is thinking SOO many different things and he doesn't understand them because he has never been forced to think for himself. But the only thing is that was something that happend in the past, not in the present...so...I don't know...maybe that was just the point that he realized something was completely wrong.
ryanm- It was like Beatty was giving Montag the choice to read the books, like he was certain that after one relapse to reading the books he would leave them alone, like it had happened many times before.
Did anyone else notice more when Montag was asking Mildred if she's seen Clarisse?
It was like Mildred isn't used to thinking at all. Everytime she's second guess herself or say how sure she is of one think but never a definate answer.
I was thinking that her mind has been so screwed up over time that she can never be sure of anything.
I looked up F451 on wikipedia, and it had a short interview or something with Bradbury. It said that he said the book wasn't about censorship at all, but how TV is mind numbing, and books are being replaced. I don't know how true that is though.
selenam- the government wants them to replace real life with television or fake life because the tv thinks for you and the governmetn can control what is going on, it replaces real life like mildred refers to it as her relatives and in real life you have to think about problem they are not solved for you by other people.
Has anyone else noticed that Mildred treats her TV "family" better than she treats Montag? Doesn't that seem a little weird?
macm- That's exactly what I mean! Beatty knew Montag had the book, and he was basically saying that Montag, you better read the book before we come and burn it!
alexf- i know what you are saying. It almost seems that the men who are firemen are almost smarter. It seems like the firemen use that 24-48 hour book thing to their advantage. I mean Montag was obviously is not the only fireman who has taken books. what do you guys think about thhis who 24-48 hour book thing.
MorganT/Kristinah--- I disagree. I don't think that the government is very involved. First of all, it doens't mention them at all and then Beatty just talks about the HUGE minority. He didn't really mention the government, so i don't think that they have a huge role in the book. **Not directed to you** but, why does peopel always assume its the government?
mattw- You did some research! That's a good point too! Mildred is definitely more into all of her TVs and her technology to concentrate on her relationships with people.
Kekek - I dont know, but I think it was like he was worried enough about Clarisse that it seemed he had a "crush" on her or something.
macm- thank you. but do you think Beatty knows about the 20 books in the ventilator?
ok so question... what do you think will happen with the Hound? The author obviously will have some purpose for him. Do you think he will come back into the story? If so how?
Mitchl~ It could be possible that people are still creating books, or if not actually writing them, copying them for future generations. I mean there must have been some way for that lady to get the books. Maybe there is like an underground society that is going against the government, trying to get people to think. Because there is still people around like Clarrisse and her family.
i think tha tv is definatly mind numbing, like if i watch a tv show,and after you ask me what had happened, i have no idea at all. Could that be what screwed up Mildreds brain?
alexf- Well, I do see your point of view... A lot of people would like to blame stuff like that on the government. To tell you the truth, I'm not quite sure why people always blame the government. I was just kind of saying that the government has made this way of life if you know what I mean...
The last few lines of page 68 are, "What does it mean? It doesn't mean anything! The Captain was right!" "Here now," said Montag. "We'll start over again, at the beginning." This shows that Montag is different from his wife. He wants to keep reading, she wants to burn them. How did Montag become this way? Why is he different from the other firemen?
alexf - I dont know, but you make a good point. It might not be the government. We just want to blame them. It's almost like blaming your hands. I think it's because the government is like "THE MAN"....
ryan- no beatty probably doesn't know about the books, b/c he told montag he's got 24 hours to burn them, and he's been collecting the books for over a year.
ryanm- I don't think that Beatty knows about the books in the ventilator, i think that he can just sense the tension and automatically assumes that he has books...after all, many firemen have gone through it and he probably thinks its normal. I also don't think that Beatty is looking down on him, i think he still likes Montag, and can feel what he is going through. What do you think?
Dawniellen - hmm...I guess that makes sense. Because I know that when i have something that is totally burning inside of me or that totally confuses me, I have to tell someone or else I would totally EXPLODE! However I usually go to that person that I feel most comfortable with or know the best. So I guess Montag feels like he is closest to Mildred now that Clarisse is gone, despite how far he feels from her. Also it could show how people in this society truly have lost all connection because how easily Montag shares such a dark secret with someone who he wouldn't even cry for if she died. Sorry for the long comments. haha
Continuing the conversation from the discussers, if the country is at war and all of the people are glued to their TVs then who is fighting in the army? Do they have robots?
maddisonm- I think the hound will definately show up again when ever Montag walks into the station. Is the dog programmed to sense the smell of book(paper and ink)?
ryanm- I don’t think that Beatty necessarily knows about the books in the ventilator, but for some reason I think someone else does. What do you think?
alexf- good point. Maybe because the government always seems to want to intervene in peoples lives and take control. It is like the governent is always power hungury and also hungery for a perfect country.
ryanm- I don't know, he definitely knows he has one, but maybe he's never had a firefighter with such extreme thoughts like Montag. Beatty doesn't know that Montag's been influenced by Clarisse and is now thiking way differently than any other fighter. He probably thinks the situation will play out like every other time, which I don't think it will.
selenam-he's different from the other firefighters because he wants to know more about books. The only concern the other firefighters have is burning them.
The whole thing about this hound thing is really confusing me. I mean, come on! It has eight legs!
Alexf- Beatty might have guessed that Montag had books when the Hound started to dislike him. Maybe he saw Montag's encounter with the Hound and realized that he was probably hiding something, which he guessed was books.
I can totally see what everyone is saying. We tend to blame the government because they are usually the causer. I just think that its ironic that we are always blaming the government when half the time, it's the public's fault!! Oh well! Good thing i'm not in politics!! :)
whitneys- i feel the same way, if i have something i need to get out, i go to a trusted person, like Montag trusts his wife probably more than anyone. but with this system, it doesnt seem like there is any trust in the world.
selena - whenever someone wants to reform, I think they have to start completely over. If you have a single trace of the previous system, there's a risk it could come back.
personally, I think that was a really good comment.
on the conversation in the circle:
I agree with becky. One person said, "Oh! This book is offensive to blacks! Let's burn it!" Now everybody can't read or even have books. It kind of ruins it for everybody.
selenam- he became this way, i think because of clarisse without her he probley would have never started questioning. But he did already have all of those books. When did this start? Why, and how is he different from all other firemen. When did he decide to take a book?
morgant- It's like how in middle school some dumb person decided to sick gum under everything and now the whole school has to be gum-free.
morgant- i agree that one person can spoil a privelige for everyone, like books!
Okay, on the conversation, and I think that one of the reasons that there isn't any contreversy over things like ladies being burned with there books is because they don't have any feelings. I mean death is an accepted fact of life. someone dies, and they are gone in ten minutes, so that all of the families won't have to be sad.
By the way...on my last comment, that's not really what happened in the book, but I was just giving an example.
maddisonm- I do think that the hound was an important aspect for us to understand kind of how the society works and to see where the firemen are at right now, but I don't think that it is super important and that it will really change the whole plot. I think that the dog will come back in small parts but I don't think that he will have some big role. It was more added to bring a little more perspective for the reader.
macm- haha! I can totally relate to that!
mitchs - oh...that is true. I didn't realize. Just another example of how technology has totally replaced real relationships with people. Because she considers them her "family", yet the only way they talk to eachother it through lines they are given from somewhere...but WHERE? WHO RUNS THIS SOCIETY?
QUESTION- does anyone think that if clarisse was still alive and still talked with montag, would montag share the books he has with clarisse, or would he even tell her about them and just keep them still hidden.
ryanm- While one person can spoil a privelege for everyone, I don't think it's right for books to banned because a certain group objects to them. I don't understand how people can become so non-confrontational that they don't want any books that could possibly be offensive to any group?
catem-i agree! I think that it's odd and harsh that no one in this book cares if other people die? What do you think will happen in the future? Do you think that people will get over death in the future?
do you think that possibly some super computer runs the society?
mitchl- That is a really good question. I would think that Montag would share them with her. I get the impression from the two of them that Montag would be totally safe telling Clarisse about them.
and... do we know that Clarisse is dead for sure?
on the inner circle there has to be a cause for the people to stop challenging the system to not like books. When and why did this type of society start? Because if it wasnt illegal to have books and you get imprisoned and they get burned if you have them then why would people want them? The people would probley have more books if they could. I wonder if more people have books hidden like montag did.
katem-where you saying that the people in the book are basically emotionless?
If you are I agree.
They can demonstrate feelings but it doesn't seem like there's much behind it. When it comes between respecting a life and doing a job, the job would come first.
whitneys- although, maybe hard to believe yet not that suprising is the people are American i think, because on pg 58, Beatty references the Constitution
alexf- In this society, death may just be a lah-dee-dah kind of thing. You never know what the future will hold, and these people may not even love eachother, so if they die it's not a big deal.
katyj- I highly doubt it. That's a good thought though! What if the computer totally crashed? That happens to the best of them! =D
ryanm- I did notice that Beatty just knew that Montag had books. I think he knew because of the questions Montag was asking and how Mildred almost pulled it out from under the pillow. And I think that Beatty sees this step for Montag as normal and typical and he just assumes that since he has reached this point, he has taken a book or 2 to really see about what books have to offer.
mitchl- I think that Montag would have gladly told Clarisse about his books, but i have a feeling that Clarisse didn't need any more books. I think that she had already read some, or at least thought so much that she didn't want to break the law just to read others' ideas. I think that she would have been proud and asked questions, but for some reason i don't think she was much of a "law breaker" Does anyone else feel this way?
I've had an epiphany.... People love their technology so much because it will never offend them. Friends will inevitabley disagree with you at some point, point you can change the channel to your taste. you can't change your friends channel. its like you can pick your nose, you can pick your friends, but you cant pick your friends nose. I don't know why books are different. Maybe because they last so much longer.
Whitneys- Where did it say Clarisse was ugly? I don't remember any description of her that said she was ugly.
catem- going way back up you asked "What do you think planted the original reason that caused Montag to steal all the books?" and I think it might be Clarisse that really made him start wondering about the world and happiness and firemen. I mean the first few pages of the book is just about Montag and how he loves to burn and then after he meets Clarisse you see him start to see his perspective on life change.
Kristenh, I have a theory on firemen, and books (it could be completely wrong). I think that maybe from there childhood, that all firemen had a rebellious spirit. As indicated by Beatty, at all times, firemen have a feeling of regret, and sadness for the previous things that they had done. And I can't think of anything that would make me not want to read books, more than burning them, because things that are burned are obviosly bad... right? So maybe it is to control the firemen from becoming a rebel.
mitchl- I definitly think that montag would share the books with clarisse. Maybe that is part of why he is so concerned with where she is. He wants to show her his newly stollen book. He want to share them with her because she would understand and be interested in them. Not like mildred who doesnt care and just wants to get back to her "life" and burn the books.
mattw- That is a really good epiphany! That is a really good thought!
Ryanm - I thought the british had a consitution. and if they don't then maybe they just took the American ideas and claimed it as their own, because there's no proof otherwise
thank you melissaz- Beatty does notice Mildred's shock of feeling the book.
mithcl - yes I think that Montag would have DEFINATELY shared the books with Clarisse.
haha thanks morgant
macm- i agree with you saying that they didn't really love eachother so death was not that big. What does everyone think will happen in the future. Will death be ignored, blown out of proportion, or kept the same?
If the United States is at war and the people won't even leave their couches and TVs, who is fighting the war? The government? Robots?
Maddisonm, do you think that he really loved to burn books, or do you think that he was TOLD that he loved to burn books? If what you said was true, then why would he collect books before he met Clarrisse?
mattw- There is also the fireman handbook, which references Ben Franklin. i dont think the British would acknoledge Ben Franklin
I was wondering, when Montag said he was "sick" he had chills and fever at first but after that was he really sick or just reacting to the womans death? Wouln't a society with mechanical dogs have a wonder drug for everything? Maybe after seeing his wife in her stupor he is afraid to take drugs?
mitchl and everyone - I meant Mildred, sorry. Why does this author make her sound so ugly?
Catem- I think that is a great point. To go along with that I think that these people have gotten so used to death and that death doesn't seem to change their lives. These people seem to have become totally self centered and if someone else dies, it doesn't really matter to them anymore, there life hasn't really changed. And it seems that death happens fairly often so it gets hard to continue greiving, and the more something happens and becomes a regular reality, they lose the sensitivity for that aspect.
It is interesting that so far there is nothing about the society’s government. Do they have a government? What is running this society? Who chooses job? Who is behind all this madness!!
mitchs - I've never thought of that. My guess would be robots. Or maybe it's like the cold war, and there's no violence, just a lot of boycotting stuff and an arms race or something. But then why would they need weapons?
Mattw- good point I think that books are different because you can choose which ones you read but you cant choose what is in that book and what is in that book might offend you so they dont want you to read them. It might cause controversy and they dont want that (at least it seems)
catem- I would guess that he was told that he loved to burn books. But are we sure that he collected those 20 books before he met Clarisse? He might have collected them during the few weeks after he met Clarisse, but before Beatty came to his house.
mitchl- i think that there are real people fighting in the war, but i have a feeling that no one cares anymore. That sounds really bad, but i think that the society just kind of ignores it. Maybe it is because by this time, the US had gone into so many wars that its no big deal anymore. If so, that would be HORRIBLE!!!!!!
ryanm - oh, point taken
Mitchl and Whitneys, maybe he didn't share the books with Clarrisse, out of fear. How does fear affect the society as a whole and individually?
i just had a thought. ylu know how in Salem they put like random people on trial, and then burned them for being withces? Well someone said way up there that all things that are burned are bad, and i thought of the Salem witch trails, and so i thought tha tmaye not all books are offensive but since some are they must all be burned, like in Salem, most of the women who were burned were normal god fearing women.
when beatty is talking to montag, and he asks if montag will show up on one of the late shifts later that night, and montag replies with a maybe, why is beatty so shocked? is it because for everyone else they totally understand why books are burned after that talk or some other reason?
alexf-wouldn't that depend on the person who's dying and what kind of life they lead to figure into what kind of people they knew.
Like, I may not think the death of my distant cousin is so sad, but to her mother it could be the worst thing in the world.
In the book, although people are pretty ignorant about truly loving in a family and everything, they still know how to love. Mildred seems to love her alternate tv family so there's proof that they can.
WHy do you think Montag married Mildred in the first place? did he love her?
off of the inner circle:
I agree with rya. The people not watching TV or not into all of this technology, they are the ones thinking for themselves. Mildred on the other hand is using the technology to distract her from all the things that she doesn't want to think about.
on the conversation circle, i think Mildred is an epitomy of the people in this society, trying to surround themselves with "family" and have a comfort zone where they dont have to do anything.
mattw- Maybe there are some Americans who are allowed to read books and are educated by the government. There could be a secret army of educated individuals fighting this war. But the general public would be completely oblivious to what was going on.
keke- Yeah but is that real love or just an enjoyment of company love. Like if her TV went away she would be sad but is it sad like the sad we are when our cousin dies??
mattw-maybe he didn't have anyone else and used her as a last resort.
Or he thought he loved her at the time they got married.
kekek- I see what you are saying, but I mean, like, would your close family cry in this book. Montag said that he wasn't sure if he'd cry if Mildred died. Will this happen in the future?????/?????????
catem- that is a very interesting point!! when you read the first few pages you would think that he at heart really loved to burn. but know what you are saying was he being told to love to burn? He grew up surrounded by firemen so maybe right from the start you are told what you will be and what you will like and what is what. this goes back to my question about the society’s "government"
mitchs- on wikipedia it said something like that, but its a "spoiler", so I won't expand.....
look if you want
ryam - I agree, because through he we have started to realize what the people in the society are like.
Well, if Montag didn't love Mildred, why did he marry her?
remember our last discussion when we were talking about who runs the government? well i think that maybe Clarrisse isn't dead, maybe she was taken to be educated and to eventually run the government.
macm- That is a good point on how in this society, they must have mirale pills. But I don't think that they have one for deppression because, like we saw with Mildred, she would never need an anti-depression pill, she is happy and would never try to take kill her self. The people will never have to chance to realize that they need to take a pill to try and change their life-style.This cycle could continue forever. These people are oblivious!
About the technology thing-
What if the tv is actually making people docile through some visual stimulant? Did you guys hear about the tv show in japan that gave peopole seizures? It would be like that only with a different effect.
kristinah- I think it could be either. At that point in the book, for all she knew the tv would flip on again in the future and she'd see them again whereas with the loss of a close person there's no chance to see them again unless you're Macbeth ;)
macm- where did you hear that? That's really interesting! =o
mattw- Did it say that there was a secret army on wikipedia? Could you be more specific?
on page 52, i think Montag has a valid point on every once in a while, you need a good bothering. because in this society no one expirences a bad spot in their life and look how everything has turned out. However strange it may seem, stress here and there is actually healthy for society. Does any one else agree?
alexf - I think that they would, but it would really depend on the person who died. Because in the future I'm sure you can-
maddieh in the inner circle has a point
-hate somebody, so you can like people at different levels. Maybe different couples are different.
Morgant- I think that like it was wayyyyyy back then, Montag and Mildred married young and didn't truly know what love was. Maybe they were pressured into it...others could be saying that its socially correct to be married. You're an outcast if youre not. At one point they were probably in love, but i don't think they are at this point in time.
on the inner circle do you think that this is how the society began. One person started it and the rest followed.
alexf- Yeah. That makes sense.
morgant- I saw it on some talk show. It's called pakka-pakka syndrome and it happens when certain colors -mainly blue and red- are broadcast at certain speeds. The flashing colors trigger som thing in the brain.
Good point Mitchs. If he did bring home all those books in that short of a time, don't you think that someone would have noticed? But I don't think that he started collecting the books after he met Clarrisse, because on page ten, says,"He stood looking up at the ventilator grille in the hall and suddenly remembered what lay behind the grille, something that seemed to peer down at him right now." This was right after he first met Clarrisse, (like five minutes after) so he clearly had at least one book before he met her.
mattw-can you elaborat please! I'm not sure i understand what you said
mitchs - SPOILER
it said there was an underground society of free thinkers led by a man named granger. I didn't read any further, but I think they might be the "opposing side"....
macm- wow. That is really interesting. I've never head of that before!
I learn something new everyday! =D
To what whitneys and mitchl and some other people have said, I think that if Clarisse would have been around for a little while longer, Montag would have shared his books with her. He wasn't ready to share this secret because he wasn't totally sure about these books, if he should even read them. He needed to have some stable ground before he shared this with anyone else, and with what Beatty said, this gave him reassurance that he wants to find out what the community is hiding.
ryanm- I agree that people do need to be bothered every once in a while because otherwise life would get borring, we would have no challenges, no reason to keep going in life because we already know what is going to happen. It wouldn't be something to cherrish and enjoy, kind of like the life in 451.
yeah, Macm, I think that is really neat. It really makes people wonder, are we being controled, even now and not know it? Could this be the thing prevented the system to be challenged?
kristinah- I agree. The kind of life in 451 sounds kind of boring. I can't imaging life without reading good books. (or being bothered or something)
kristinah- thank you, life in this book seems relatively boring, uneventful, and mechanical. whats the point in that?
catem- Yeah,like did you know that certain foods have chemicals in them that fool your brain into thinking that its not full? So you just keep eating and eating....
alexf- wow that is interesting! death really does not seem like a big deal in this book. will it be like that in the future? It seems like even in our society today death is seen as "scary" and we try to eliminate it from our lives. Also with marriages back then people did not really love each other but had pre-arranged marriages. Now in this futuristic book it doesn't really seem like Mildred and Montag love each other. Also in our society not ALL people are marring for love. Is history repeating?
macm- to go off what you said, i think that maybe they government is brainwashing them through thier tvs! Just a thought!
alexf- wow that is interesting! death really does not seem like a big deal in this book. will it be like that in the future? It seems like even in our society today death is seen as "scary" and we try to eliminate it from our lives. Also with marriages back then people did not really love each other but had pre-arranged marriages. Now in this futuristic book it doesn't really seem like Mildred and Montag love each other. Also in our society not ALL people are marring for love. Is history repeating?
catem - that is really freaky. Maybe we've been controlles since birth and don't know what thinking for yourself really is.....bizarre...
maddisonm - good point. History does supposedly repeat itself, but I thought htat just applied to politics and wars. I'm pretty sure the marriages in the future aren't pre-arranged, but maybe they marry just because that's the way life's always been. your born, go to school, graduate, get a job, marry, have kids, grow old, and die. History is repeating, but for different reasons.
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