Monday, October 8, 2007

Macbeth Final Test Period 2

Here is your chance to show me your understanding of Macbeth. Ask great questions, make sure to reference whom you are speaking to and, most of all, dazzle everyone with your wisdom!

178 comments:

kristenw said...

first comment ya... this will be like a giant chatroom but were all in the same room. haha

josed said...
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josed said...

Testing

amyw said...

it works!!!

BrianC said...

I know it works, that's how I can say this.

chelseas said...

Testing blog!!

annes said...

1. Was Macbeth always driven with ambition or did it develop once the idea of becoming king was implanted in his mind by the witches?
2. Do you think Macbeth would have murdered anyone for personal gain in his lifetime without the witches prophecy? so my question is; did he always have that fatal flaw or did it begin with the witches?
3.Do you think that Macbeth's downward spiral into insanity unquie to him or if someone els was placed in the same situation would the reaction be the same?
4. Macduff was a lot like Macbeth. The greatest difference between the two, however, was that Macduff didn't have the same fatal flaw of a tragic hero as Macbeth. Do you think in the real world people have opposites like this?

aaronw said...
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Liap said...
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amyw said...

annes---I think that Macbeth's ambition began with the witches. Before he came across them, it seemed as if the idea that he could be king had never crossed his mind. The witches started this whole sequence of murder for Macbeth. Without them in the play, there would be no murder. I also don't think his descent into insanity is unique, because I think that if anyone was in his situation the same thing would happen to them. When you keep killing to secure a spot as king and having hallucinations because of your guilt, this would be enough to make anyone insane.

BrianC said...

Anne; in answer to your fourth question, I think that there are often opposites in people, though not as drastic as in the movies. There can be opposites like boisterous and timid or mean and kind.

alexd said...

I enjoyed Macbeth a lot more than i thought I would. I thought that the book was going to be boring because i had a stereotype that Skakespeare was always boring and difficult. As the play progressed i really got into the play and i began to understand it.

stefo said...

ryad- the first question you asked was how does guilt play a role in the play. Guilt plays a huge role in the play. It effected Lady Macbeth and Macbeth in two opposite ways. Macbeth was wracked with guilt in the very begining. but he is a man of war and once the deaths began to pile up it became more like war to him and effected him less. Lady Macbeth was eerily calm in the very beginning but the guilt drove to to madness and kill herself. So guilt plays a huge role in the play

nicolek said...

Anne- to the fourth question i think that people do have opposites like Macbeth and Macduff. Even in lord of the flies it shows an example of this with Jack and Ralph.

to what kristin said: i think that Macbeth is more tragic than a hero. Although he had a lot of qualities of being a tragic heros, but by the end he had no one following him or seeing him as hero, just a villian

Liap said...
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KatherineM said...

Annes- 1. I think that the witches sparked Macbeth's ambition. I don't think he ever had any thoughts of becoming king until he heard the witches' prophecy, but once he did hear about it, his ambition leaped into action.

alyssas said...

Megan U.- I think that Macbeth always had great ambition, it just didn't become apparent until he found out about the witches' prophecy.

nilec said...

Mrs. Smith-I think macbeth is a story that can be interperated in many ways. I think Macbeth was indeed a tragic hero. He had many flaws and basically ruining his life with every action he makes

amyw said...

I didn't enjoy Macbeth that much. I understood it, but I found that the writing was dry and too much time was spent at the beginning on mundane details, and the end, which was important, was rushed. So I didn't like it very much.

aaronw said...

anne- hehe thats weird to call my teacher by her first name...
anyways, I think that ambition was always a little part of his life. But once the witches told him that he would be king, he had a major ambition to become king.
The big circle is having a talk about whether Macbeth was a tragic hero or not... what does everyone think??

chelseas said...

I thought that Macbeth qualified as a true tragic hero. He started out as a tragic hero, in war, but then the witches' prophesies led to his downfall.

I thought that he was a tragic hero, according to our definition in class.

MollyS said...

amyw- so do you think that none of the murder would have happened if the witches hadn't made the prophecy? but if it IS a prophacy, then wouldnt it happen no matter what?

kristenw said...

anne- answering your first question, Macbeth I don't think was driven by ambition at first then when the witches told him he was going to be king he and Lady macbeth pushed for that to happen sooner.

Lukez said...

anne- I think that for the first question about how Maceth was driven by ambition or if it just came out of the witches telling him that he was going to be king, I think that he was mmostly driven by the prophecies of the witches. He did have a lot of ambition, but I think that before he was told by the witches that he was going to be king that ambition was focused towards other things that had more positive influneces on Scotland

rsabey said...

Smith, I think that Macbeth was always driven by his tragic flaw. Maybe he wasnt driven by an evil power but by compitition?

clarao said...

katherinem-
I agree that what happened to Macbeth is mostly the witches' fault. They like to cause trouble, and they were planning from the beginning for Macbeth to be suffering from inner conflict

kristenw said...

alexd- i agree with you about liking macbeth more than you thought you would.

Louiseb said...

Anne s. - I think that Macbeth has always had his fatal flaw. Before the witches told him their prophecy Macbeth still murdered people in war and things like that and for the most part I think that he did that for his personal gain because when he murdered someone who was an enemy the rest of the army would look up to him because he could do something that they could not. And then when he learned of the prophecy the flaw became even more prominent, he knew that he was able to kill people and so he did.

stefo said...

the outer circle is talking about whether or not macbeth is a hero or not. i believe that he is a tragic hero. I stopped liking Macbeth after the murders began to pile up but he redeemed himself at the very end when he decided to die fighting instead of giving up which is a heroic thing in itself

amyw said...

aaronw---I don't think Macbeth was a tragic hero because the "hero" part wouldn't apply to him. Killing a lot of people so you can have power and fame doesn't qualify as heroic. True, he had to stand alone to do everything and he did challenge the system, but this doesn't make him a tragic hero because he was never a hero. So I guess he challenged the system but he wasn't a hero.

alexd said...

To resond to your first question.. annes- i think that Macbeth was always driven by his ambition but i think the stradegy he uses to fullfill his ambition changes immensely throughout the play. As the play progresses Macbeth becomes more confident and the level of his ambition increses but it was still always there. He becomes increasingly violent and cruel as his confidence increases.

BrianC said...

I have a few questions
1. what would've happened to Macbeth if he didn't meet the witches?
2. Can you think of anyone, in real life or other literature, who could be classified as a tragic hero? Becarfull to not use other peoples' real names in your answer.

chelseas said...

I think that Macbeth got caught up in the prophecies of the witches. They really seemed to boost his ego. I think that this led to his downfall.

Lukez said...

molly- I think that none of the prophecies would have come true if he had not been told about the prophecies by the withces. I don't think that the prophecies actually became prophecies until they were told to Macbeth by the witches.

nicolek said...

I dont really see how Macbeth is such a great hero even before he heard the prophecy. He never really did anything that was so great and having a big impact on anything. And even when he was king he didn't do anything but make people serve him inspite of fear.

meganu said...

annes-
I do not think that Macbeth would have murdered anyone in his lifetime for personal gain if he had not heard the witches prophecy. Before he and Lady Macbeth came up with the plan of Duncan's murder, Lady Macbeth thought Macbeth was too kind to pull it off. She didn't think he had the guts to kill. I think the witches wanted to cause chaos so they implanted this vision in Macbeth's head. Macbeth could've been perfectly happy for the rest of his life as the Thane of Glamis but the witches told him that he would become the Thane of Cawdor and then the king. He would've become the Thane of Cawdor because the previous Thane was a traitor and was executed by the king. Without the witches telling Macbeth that he would become king, i don't think he would've murdered Duncan.

aaronw said...

mrs. smith- answering your 4th question, i believe that everyone in the world has an opposite; even in Lord of the Flies, like nicolek said, ralph and jack are opposites. Franklin D. Roosevelt's opposite was hitler; Chuck Norris's was Bruce Lee; there are opposites in the world, whether they are real, or just made up...
btw, why does everyone say "like" so much?

maddief said...

annes- Macbeth's ambition to become king was probably always there. When you're related to someone in power, there is always some jealousy there. Why wasn't I born into Duncan's family, why am I not the heir to the throne? Macbeth might not have always planned on murdering his cousin, but the fact that he was a noble and a great warrior must have made him realize that it was a possibility that he could become king. Even Banquo told Macbeth this after they had heard the witches' prophecies.
The witches' prophecies was the straw that broke the camel's back. Macbeth's ambition to be king was always there, but what convinced him into taking action were the witches.

KatherineM said...

I don't think Macbeth fit all the characteristics of a tragic hero. I guess you could just call him a tragic character. I would not consider a liar and murderer to be a hero. Yes, he challenged the system, but it wasn't necessarily for the better.

nilec said...

Nick says that Macduff becomes the tragic hero. I think he and the people that challenge Macbeth become heros but not exactly a tragic hero.

kristenw said...
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amyw said...

mollys---Even though it was a prophecy, without the witches none of it would ever have been planted into his head. Before he met them, he'd never thought he could have become king so without the witches, how would it have happened? How would he have known about it? The witches were the reason everything happened.

alyssas said...

I agree with what Kristen W. said in class. She said that she didn't really see Macbeth as a tragic hero. I can see aspects of Macbeth's personality that would make him a tragic hero, but I see Banquo or as more of tragic heroes. I could see Banquo because he never really did anything wrong, he just happened to be there when the witches told Macbeth their prophecy. After all, it wasn't his fault that he was part of the prophecy, but because he was, that ended up being the reason for his murder.

stefo said...

The outer circle is dicussing whether or not Macduff is a tragic hero. I believe that Macduff is a hero in the sense that he is the opposite of Macbeth. With his goodness and loyalty to scotland. but he is only a hero not a tragic hero

Louiseb said...

I agree with alex d. Macbeth has always had ambition- he has just used it in different ways- in the beginning he used his ambition to please people through killing people in battle but as the play goes on that ambition turns more selfish and he uses his ambition only to please himself

Liap said...

anne-Macbeth always had ambition, otherwise he would not have been able to do what he did. I think the witches just planted the idea of murder in his head, and he toyed with it before finally doing it. The coice to murder was his wrong dicision that lead to his downfall.

Javonm said...

Anne, an answer to your second question. I believe Macbeth was always a good person deep down. It seemed to me at the start of Macbeth's reign he felt sorry for some of the decisions he made. I don't think that he would have murdered for any personal gain if it weren't for the witches prophecy. He still had no belief in the witches after they had disappeared at the first meeting. Until, the first prophecy came true did he begin to lead his life by the witches prophecies witch lead to his downfall and his killing spree.

chelseas said...

I think that there are heroes that experience tragedy, but they aren't really tragic heroes.

I think that Macbeth would have a good person in general, and a great warrior, just like Nick said.

SerenaL said...

annes-
1. I think that he had the ambition in him, but it did not show until the witches gave him the idea of a successful and powerful leader.
2. His fatal flaw was there the whole time. Before he met the witches, he was still a brutal fighter. The witches knew of his tragic flaw and pushed him towards it to cause destruction.
3. It depends on whether they were blood thirsty like Macbeth was. If I were placed in Macbeths position, when the witches told me that I would be King, then I would wait to be King, my thoughts wouldn't immediately fall to the level of murdering so many innocent people.
4. Yes, we have opposites of everything. Everyone has a different perspective and personality on things. People of the same political party, or the same family, or even just two good friends could have the same interests or beliefs, or religions, but no one is exactly the same. Everyone disagrees about something.

clarao said...

I agree that Macbeth was already a killer, but he just wasn't a traitor, and that was his original inner conflict. He didn't want to betray his country.

amyw said...

brianc---If Macbeth wouldn't have met the witches then how would he have known about the prophecy? My guess is that this play wouldn't have been very exciting...

alexd said...

brianc- to answer your first question.... i think that if Macbeth would not have met the withches none of his success or downfall would ever happen. Before he met the witches i believe that he was somewhat insecure and he would not be brave enough to go after his ambition without the reasurrance of the witches.

nicolek said...

Molly- I think that because it was a prophecy, some of the things may have come true but it would've had different ways of making them come true. Such as, Macbeth wouldn't have killed Duncan but i think he would've some how became king eventually. The prophecy never said that Macbeth should murder all those people, that was his decision and what he thought would make the prophecy come true.

nilec said...

nick says that the whitches basically ruined macbeth by telling him the first prophese but i think that if MAcbeth was a really strong person he would have been able to overcome his temptation and let things in his life play out. So i think macbeth's weakness is shown be him killing to make the prophose come true

Lukez said...

amy - I think that macbeth is a tragic hero. I don't think that he is a hero though. I think that being a tragic hero doesn't imply that he has tragedy in his life and he is a hero. They should all be taken as one meaning. A tragic hero is one certain thing, like a single phrase that has it's own meaning.

BrianC said...

Attention students: anyone can post a question so start asking your own. I'm sure you all have questions you want answered so just ask. Everyone doesn't have to answer the same question, if more questions are asked, then there can be a bigger descusion.

kristenw said...

I like the idea that there's tragic heroes and heroes that go through tragedies. It makes alot of sense.

MollyS said...

amy and luke-
i see where you are coming from,

so do you think that when they made the thane of cawdor prephecy they were just trying to make macbeth go under their 'spell' becuase it had allready happened?

aaronw said...

brainc, i think that Macbeth would have become a well respected man in the Scottish kingdom. who knows: he might have come King someday...
We are talking about different heroes. kristenw talked about Dr. Octupus in the second Spiderman movie. he was a heroic scientist, but then became superoctopus man. he ended up dying at the end... a perfect connection :)

phoebef said...

i think that macbeth is a tragic hero because he is able to see his flaws, and recognise his wrond doing. In the last act he realizes he must now fight like a human, and accept the fate that is coming for him. he realizes that he deserves to die even though he doesn't want to.

Louiseb said...

I agree with Nicole k Macbeth’s life is tragic and he has some of the characteristics of a tragic hero but he never really did anything that made him a hero- he killed people ruthlessly before and after he heard the prophecy but he never really did anything that made him good

amyw said...

In response to what the talking people are talking about, I agree that Macduff was the tragic hero. He was a hero for murdering the person who basically messed up Scotland and was evil and kept killing people. He ended Macbeth's terrible reign, and also something bad happened to him: the murder of his family. So he was a hero that had something tragic happen to him.

elisabethc said...

I would definately say that Macbeth was influenced by the witches. I liked Javons point about how the witches made Macbeth want to fulfill the prophecy, so he decided to chase it and try to make it come true instead of waiting for it to happen. Also, the witches did a lot of things with Macbeth later in the book to try and boost his confidence. They has a huge influence.

chelseas said...

I think that Macbeth got too wrapped up in his ego. The witches led downfall too. I also think that he did not look about what was to happen, but focused only on the witches’ prophecies. He never wanted to let fate play a role in his future.

Liap said...

i agree with Kristen, the heroes that go through tragedy is a just a bad turn of events; it doesn't have to do with a choice that they made.

nicolek said...

Molly- i dont think that the witches made him the thane. I dont think that the witches actually make things happen, they can just look into the future and i guess they wanted to see what would happen if they gave someone a glimpse into their future and see what they would do to make it come true.

nilec said...

mark said something about Macbeth knowing he was going to die and him wanting to die. I think it was more of him wanting to continue being king than not wanting to die. He knows he will die and he doesnt mind he just worked so hard to become king that he didnt want it to end that way.

Louiseb said...

I think that before Macbeth knew that he was going to die he really wanted to live but after he found out that it was inevitable that he was going to be killed he accepted the fact and when he thought about it he found that there was really no reason for him to live anymore, he had no morals, no respect, no friends, no family why would he still want to be there?

amandah said...

Mrs. Smith-
1. I think Macbeth was driven by ambition after he heard the prophecy because before the witches told him his future he was a good warrior and had good morals. Then he was corrupted with the idea of killing Duncan but he didn't want to act on the idea until his wife pushed him by telling he wasn't a man because he didn't want to kill Duncan.
2.I think Macbeth always did have this flaw but the witches' prophecy made him show this flaw more than before.
3. I think that the reaction could be the same to someone else in that situation because its possible for people to keep killing after they kill and they could feel so guilty that they could go insane.
4. I think people do have opposites in the real world maybe not as drastic as a tragic hero and the hero but some people don't get along with eachother.

alexd said...

to go along with the discussion happening in the group I believe that Macbeths downfall is his over confidence. His confidence pushed him to kill a Macduffs wife and child and eventually Macduff kills him. If his overconfidence had not played a part in his life, i believe that he would have never killed Lady Macduff and her child and therefore he would have never been killed. He brought his own death upon him.

aaronw said...

there is a movie called the Last King of Scotland... it has nothing to do with Scotland, it's about an Ugandan dictator, played by Forrest Whitaker. It's a good movie. But the character is a "tragic anti-hero"... he ends up going to jail. he seemed like a good guy, turned into a Macbeth-ish character, and murdered thousands of innocent ugandans... if anyone has seen the movie, please share about my understanding.......

KatherineM said...

Annes- To answer your second question, I don't think Macbeth would've gone so far as to murder Duncan without the prophecy of the witches. It seemed that Macbeth had always been a ruthless fighter, but like I said in a previous comment I think the witches made Macbeth become even more ruthless.

kristenw said...

i like my connection to Doctor Octupus with Macbeth. They fit like perfectly together. They both start out good then go evil to achieve their own personal goals, then in the end they realize what they did wrong.

p.s. then Spiderman would be like Macduff who was friends with him in the begining then ends up fighting him.

amyw said...

Just a thought: after Lady Macbeth dies and Macbeth makes the speech about how life is a "brief candle", I think right then he knew he would die soon because of how evil he'd become and everything that he'd done. He probably knew that he would be found out eventually. When the army came he pretty much probably knew he would die. So the candle comment applied to his thoughts about his wife's death and his thoughts about his own coming death.

Liap said...

Chelsea- I agree that Macbeth had to big of an ego. That was another tragic flaw of his... because of the second meeting with the witches he became lazy and stopped caring so much.

stefo said...

I don't believe that Macbeth wanted to die. In the last scene after learning that the prophecy can't protect him anymore he continutes to fight. He realized that everything he had believed in to become king had fallen away yet he still fights for his life because despite the speech of life meaning meaningless he realizes the most basic need of every man. To live. Because if you don't have life then you truly don't have anything

Lukez said...

aaronw - I agree that macbeth would have become a highly respected noble in the kingdom of Scotland and that he would have been king maybe. But I'm wondering:

If Macbeth became king by a different path where he didn't kill the king to get there, would he have been a good king or would it be similar to how it was?

nilec said...

molly says that the Tragic heros have followers but what i get out of that is that the tragic hero has followers and supporters but as there heroism becomes more noticeably they loose the close relationship. Like in spiderman when he starts loosing the girl he loves and his best friend

nicolek said...

Nile- i think that Macbeth has realized what he has done and the death of Lady Macbeth kind of showed him that. I think he realized that he almost has nothing left, no family, no true followers, the only thing he really has is being king. It seems like he doesn't really want to live but he doesn't want to be killed by Macduff either

aaronw said...

the dictator was obsessed with scottish culture. was a reason it was called the last king of scotland because it had a macbeth theme?

chelseas said...

I also agree with the comment that Molly comment, and that people support heroes, but they don’t exactly support every move. I also agree with what Liz said about Lady Macbeth being a “support system”. You also need support to drive a person.

Javonm said...

I know that in our class discussion we were trying to decide whether or not Macduff was a hero or a tragic hero. I belive that in a sense Macduff was a tragic hero. Macduff wanted to kill Macbeth because his family had been murderd. The murders of his family were the factors that lead him to killing Macbeth. In a quote Macduff says, " If thou beest slain and with no stroke of mine, My wife and children's ghost will haunt me still", this quote shows how Macduff truely feels and his reasons for wanting to kill Macbeth. This quote also shows the true qualities of a tragic hero, he is overcome by the thoughts of his family causing him to have this urge to kill Macbeth.

amyw said...

I agree with chelseas that Macbeth's ego got too big. He wouldn't let fate intervene; he just thought he could control everything and that he was invincible. He would do anything for power and to keep hold of that power. The witches made him overconfident and he believed them. If he had questioned what the witches said, would he ever have become evil?

SerenaL said...

Brian C-
To your first question, I think that Macbeth would have gone on being only the Thane of Glamis if he had not met the witches. Before he had met them, he hadn't even thought of being King, because to do that he would have to kill Duncan, his innocent cousin, who was doing very well ruling.

I was also wondering if the witches represent something. Do the "witches" still take part in peoples desicions today?

KatherineM said...

Amyw- That could be a possibility, but didn't Macbeth make that speech before he found out that Macduff was not born naturally. Didn't Macbeth have confidence he wouldn't die until Macduff told him that?

alexd said...

Without Lady Macbeth and the witches, Macbeth would be nothing. Although he was a great warrior prior to both of the influences, it was only untill after they influenced him that he accomplishes anoything great.

Louiseb said...

I agree with Lia and Chelsea- one of Macbeths most fatal flaws was his amazing over confidence it seemed like he thought that he could do anything and that wasn’t true

aaronw said...

lukez- i think that if Macbeth would have become king through a different path, he would have been better because he wouldn't have had innocent murder in his life... what do you think?

meganu said...

Zachh-
I think Macbeth got what was coming to him. Sure he may have started out as a nice, innocent person but because of the witches prophecy, he tried to control fate. At first he didn't believe in the prophecy but after he became Thane of Cawdor, he realizes it could be true so he was willing to kill to become king. Then, he remembered Banquo's prophecy that Banquo will father kings so he decides that Banquo's whole family should be taken out. After visiting the witches again, the apparition tells him to be weary of Macduff. This is when he decides to send a murderer to kill Macduff's wife and child. Another apparition told Macbeth that he should not fear because no one born of woman can kill him. In his final hours, Macbeth was able to kill Young Siward because he was born of woman and was unable to kill Macbeth. After hearing the witches prophecy, Macbeth just tried to control fate and became a terrible king, killing people for his personal gain, so he deserved to die

Lukez said...

amy - I don't think that he knew he was going to die because he still had so much confidence as a result of the three prophecies of the witches. At that point he didn't even know that Birnim Wood was heading towards the castle or that Macduff was not naturally born of a women.

Liap said...

Chelsea- it's really hard to agree with someone's every move because of personal opinion. It's kind of like how people like a president, but they don't agree with his decision to go to war or something.

amandah said...

In the oral discussion Molly said something about the tragic hero having a support system and I think that a tragic hero does need people who support him for example Macbeth was supported by Lady Macbeth when it came to killing Duncan in order to be king. Also in LOF Jack had his choir boys to back up his actions and they followed his lead and supported his decisions.

phoebef said...

I think that a hero begins without followers, and begins to gain support through what they believe in. When a hero bucks the system they may not begin with many followers, this is what we do not see in macduff. In the story macduff begins his silent rebellion not with many followers. he eventually gains support by both what macbeth is doing, and his own actions. Macduff ends as a hero with support, but probably began as one of the only ones that was willing to buck the system.

rsabey said...

Luke I think he would have been a good and noble man. If he could controll his violent and prideful feelings than he would have been a king with Loyalty, love and respect. The tragedy in this book is not Macbeths Death but his fall from the progress that he had made in life.

alyssas said...

Mark was saying that Macbeth, in the end, wanted to die. I only kind of agree with that. I believe that Macbeth finally saw what he had done and the monster he had become and he couldn't stand to see that, so in that sense I can see how he would want to die. But, even in the end, Macbeth still has his ambition and he kind of sticks to it, even as he realizes what he has done, so I also think that he doesn't want to die.

amyw said...

serenal---I think "witches" do take part in people's decisions even today. It comes in the form of peer pressure, which pressures people to do things they would never do if it weren't for the pressure. Sometimes this pulls people in so far that they can't go back. Macbeth would most likely never have been pulled into that web of murder if it hadn't been for "peer pressure" (the witches).

SerenaL said...

Amyw-
Does Macbeth become evil, or has the evil been in him the whole time?

Is Macbeths character more like Ralph or Jack?
To give my own opinion to my question, I think Macbeth is similar to Ralph, yet the opposite. Macbeth has the evil and savageness that Jack has as well, but Jack has a whole tribe, and Ralph is alone. Macbeth is alone aswell.

chelseas said...

6. Many times throughout history, we see the common trend that people do things that they believe are morally wrong in order to do what is right. If this makes any sense, I think that Macduff did this to get back at Macbeth. Macduff knew that it is morally wrong to kill someone, however; Scotland needed Macbeth to be gone in order to have it function properly.

Louiseb said...

Aaron- I agree, I think that if Macbeth had gotten what he wanted in terms of being king in a way other than killing people all the time, he would have been a very different person and would have been better off. He would not have issues with his conscience, his confidence would have remained at a reasonable level and he just would have been a better king all together

Lukez said...

aaron - I think that Macbeth would have been a better king if he had become king through a different path but not a great king. He still would have all of those tragic flaws of a tragic hero so i believe that he eventually would have lead to his own downfall in the end.

kristenw said...

this is random but i thought it was funny that there was a talking head in both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies.

elisabethc said...

A lot of this whole tragic thing has to do with the fact that all men are innerly evil and we are all sinful and have our weaknesses. In Lord of the Flies and Macbeth it shows how the inner evil wants to come in and take control. I would have to say that the books are parallel but heading in completely different directions in terms of the evil that is occuring. At the end of Macbeth good prevails over evil and Macbeth is killed, while in Lord of the Flies everyone moves to the bad side and is heading towards ridding everything of good.

amyw said...

alyssas---I think Macbeth knew he was going to die, but he didn't necessarily want to die. Just because you're honest with yourself and figure out you're going to die doesn't mean you WANT to die. This was the case with Macbeth.

KatherineM said...

I agree with Stefo. I don't think Macbeth wanted to die either. Yes, he found out that Macduff was not born of a woman, and that frightened him, but he still fought the fight, because he didn't want to give up so easily and die.

alexd said...

LOF and Macbeth are very similar if you look at the aspect of the characters personalities progression. Macbeth and the boys of LOF both become less empathetic, and the moral values that they once possesed disapear.

chelseas said...

I also agree with the comment that Molly comment, and that people support heroes, but they don’t exactly support every move. I also agree with what Liz said about Lady Macbeth being a “support system”. You also need support to drive a person.

Liap said...

I agree with the parrallel but running in different directions idea. That makes sense, because the boys were getting more savage, which is what desensitizes them to murder, and with Macbeth, the first murder made him slightly savage, and it was all downhill from there.

aaronw said...

Macbeth is a strange name...i looked it up a little bit ago and it means "son of beth"... so i looked up beth. that means "house of God" in the original Hebrew... does his name affect anything about him?

kristenw said...

i agree with what Chelsea S. said about doing something you know is wrong to do what's right.

MollyS said...

kristen
i never noticed that! but remember in LOF it wasnt talking out loud, simon just had a weird connection with it.

nicolek said...

I think that evil can be ambition it just all depends on how much you want something. Like if i wanted a new pair of shoes or something i wouldn't go around killing people to get it but for Macbeth when he got the opportunity to become king, it would change his whole life. It was something he has always wanted and he was also pressured by his wife's ambition for it too to commit all of those evil acts

nilec said...

zach said that wanting something is what can cause evil but I think that everyone wants something and if your weak enough to fall to those wants then you are a canidate for being a tragic hero

Javonm said...

Out of curiosity I just looked up the word duff. It says one of the meanings is to give a deliberately deceptive appearance to, or to misrepresent. After finding this out this makes me wonder if the name Macduff could have been chosen as an opposite name, to represent an opposite character, to Macbeth?

maddief said...

My opinion on tragic heroes and heroes who go through tragedies is that they are not the same. Macbeth meets all of the qualifications of a tragic heroe; he was noble, he died, and his fatal flaws, his pride and confidence, were his downfall. But was he a hero? Heroes are looked up to and do what is right; often times their actions are moral, but not always. Macbeth's actions were not morally right; he would have been able to take the throne eventually, but murdering his cousin was not the way to go about it.
Macduff takes on the role of the hero later in the book. He is not a tragic hero because he does not fit the qualifications for one, but his family's murder and his compassion and sorrow draw the audience towards his character. He cares enough about his country that he is willing to challenge the system, Macbeth, and sacrifice his life for it. He is brave and courageous which are characteristics of heroes. And in the end, he vanquishes the evil tyrant.
Although Macbeth is a tragic hero, his actions are not admirable. He might have been the protagonist, but he was no one to admire or look up to.

amyw said...

serenal---Macbeth becomes evil once he meets the witches. Before that, Lady Macbeth said he was too kind to kill anyone, and she knew him well so this was the truth. The witches' pressure and prophecy made him become evil, and without this he never would have gone along this path. Just my thoughts!

Lukez said...

amy - I think that Macbeth is much more like Jack then like Ralph. By the end of the LOF Jack seems to have a total disregard for the loss of human life, similar to Macbeth. Also, I think that they are similar in the way that Jack went from a very strict person in the quire, to a savage human that is obviously at least a little insane. This is similar to Macbeths fall from greatness as well.

aaronw said...

kristen- do you think that they both had talking heads is important? i don't think so, but what does everyone else think?

clarao said...

Aaron- I think that's interesting that Macbeth has such a "good" name, when he cintinues to commit murders. Maybe Shakespeare did that on purpose to show how evil good people can be.

kristenw said...

molly
ya but simon was was sort of hallucinating the pig head talking to him. so it's almost the same as the armed head in Macbeth.

stefo said...

Ralph in my opinion was ulimate example of challenging the system. He was challenging a negative system when all the boys abandon the idea of civilization. He continues to fight to be rescued regardless of losing all his supporters. A text to text connection between LOF and Macbeth to the book 1984. The main charcter of that book fights the system that controls the past and minds of the people. The timeless question that is a theme in all three books is this. If you are in the minority of one; despite all other evidence; you continue to believe what is right and to fight for it. For Macbeth he loses sight of who he is any that is an example of how sometimes the minority of one doesn't always work out. But with 1984 and LOF challenging the system when the system was wrong and they were right shows that the minority of one can be right regardless of what the masses believe. If that makes sense. Sorry i am just writing down my thoughts as they come

alyssas said...

I agree with what you said, Chelsea S. Sometimes you have to do wrong to do right, like Macduff does. That could also bring up the point of challenging the system. When you see something that is wrong, and you are the only one that sees it, you may have to go up against everybody else and challenge the system to do what is right.

chelseas said...

I think that the war paint in LOF made the boys to seem more secure. The face allowed them to feel okay to commit these terrible acts. I agree with Liz’s comment about the blood hiding Macbeth’s sins.

phoebef said...

Amyw- I think that Macbeth, like all humans, has some evil inside him. Macbeth just taps-in to this evil to begin with. We can also see this in jack and Ralph. When Ralph goes hunting with the boys for the first time he begins to enjoy the "thrill of the hunt". This could be considered him accessing his inner evil. This inner evil is the basis of Golding's entire theory and story line.

alexd said...

I have a question for everybody....


1. How does your veiw of Macbeth change throughout the book. How do you feel towards his characer at the end of the book?

amandah said...

alexd-
did you mean that he wasn't an evil person or a tragic hero without Lady Macbeth and the witches or all together he's nothing without them?

I think that Macbeth was something without Lady Macbeth and the witches because he was a great warrior and the king heard about Macbeth's victory in war before he heard the witches prophecy.

nicolek said...

Molly and Kristen:
the head in LOF didn't talk out loud but Simon wasn't the only one who had a connection with it. When Ralph was around it he felt a weird ambience (SAT word :]) around the head just like in Macbeth the heads brought on different ideas and a different atmosphere for Macbeth

Liap said...

I think the hallucinations are a big part of the actions that the boys/Macbeth take.

ZachH said...

Ms. Smith,

1.) I do not believe that Macbeth was always driven by ambition to be king. I think his meeting with the witches planted the idea in his head. I think the idea to become a murderer is nutured along by two things. One, when he is passed over for the position of heir. I think Macbeth thought prehapes Duncan would choose him as the heir to the thrown instead of Malcolm. Second, i think Lady Macbeth drives him to become a true murderer. She encourages him to be a killer, constantly calling him a coward or challenging him that he is not a man if he doesn't do this.

2.) I believe that he has these qualities and the wittches use it to their advantage. To pin point Macbeth's fatal flaw is probably his overcofidence. I think the witches tell him is future so he will feel that nothing can stop him. Even the apparitions play into this that Macbeth feels unstoppable so he continues on his dark path.

3.) I think the reaction is universal. I think if someone predicts your future you will try to make it come true and when it doesn't happen, you feel frustrated. I think your furstation can cause you to do things you may regret, and this can may you appear insane.

4.) I think there are people in the world who lead simular lifesytles, but have different personalities. It's like friends we have. We tend to hang out with people who are a lot like us. Or like our parents tend to put us around people who have the same values as them, but they are never identicle. Sometimes they have different needs or priorities.

chelseas said...

Alyssa S.-I agree that this brings up the point of challenging the system. Macduff was truly challenging the system.

clarao said...

I think that the paint that the boys put on their faces makes them feel like they are becoming other people, and the paint hides who they used to be. They can start a new life as a savage and not have to feel bad about it.

amandah said...

Liz-
You made a connection in the oral discussion about the blood and the paint both being masks. I agree with that connection in that the blood and the paint compelled Macbeth and the boys in LOF to do the evils deeds that they commited.

Louiseb said...

It seems like a common evil in Macbeth, LOF, and even every day life is the need for power. Macbeths need for power ultimately killed him because his desire made him into a person that would do anything that he had to in order to become more powerful. In LOF the boys, especially Ralph and Jack, wanted to be the only one with any power and so they were each willing to kill the other so that they could be chief and be the only one in charge. In real life an example is the religious disagreements- it seems like each wants to be the all powerful one and so there are so many bloody battles and arguments over who will be the ultimate power

kristenw said...

javon- that is really interesting what "duff" means. huh... thats really interesting you should bring that uo in discussion out loud.

MollyS said...

nicole
props on the SAT word

but ralph didnt talk to it.

i think that it is representing the evil in people

but i am curious about what a head represents, because it is the main detatched body park talkked about

aaronw said...

that's a good point nicole- and alexd, i always didn't like Macbeth, partly because Mrs. smith had told us he was a tragic hero, i thought he'd be bad...

Lukez said...

Javon - Even without knowing the meaning of Duff ( even though it did help) I think that Macbeth and Macduff were meant to be opposite. I also think that Macduff may be a representation of what Macbeth may have been if he hadn't been twisted by his tragic flaw, whatever that may be. Macbeth was constantly pushed to do things, but Macduff was strong enough to take a stand for what he believed in when he was pushed to do anything

KatherineM said...

Serenal-I think that Macbeth's character is very similar to Jack in Lord of the Flies. At the end of each story, they both don't seem to have respect for human lives. They don't have troubles committing these atrocious murders. Also, both characters challenged the system. Jack challenged Ralph, and Macbeth challenged Duncan and anyone else who was in his way of becoming king.

rsabey said...

Zach- I agree with you. wanting power, and a need for pride is the downfall of the human race. it doesn't start out as an evil idea but after a point becomes one.

amyw said...

javonm---That's an interesting point and I agree! Macduff is the opposite character to Macbeth---he is good; Macbeth is bad. Basically, without evil there is no good, and without good there isn't evil. They're opposites, but like Nick just said, everyone has two sides. They need each other to exist. But on the same note, the evil needs ambition and certain circumstances to show itself. I think everyone is good, sometimes something just comes along to make the evil come out, in this case it was the witches who took Macbeth's evil out.

Liap said...

I agree with what Rachel is saying about people being basically good. I think that people have to be exposed to evil to be evil.

meganu said...

serenal-
I don't think Macbeth was 100% evil, I think he became evil after hearing the witches prophecy. Sure it was his decision to carry out all the murders he committed but the ideas wouldn't have even been in his head without the witches. Even Lady Macbeth thought that he was too kind of a person to kill anyone.

chelseas said...

I think that society becomes evil when society is put into play, like Rachel said.

alexd said...

amandah-

let me specify what i was thinking. I believe that he became more evil and great because of Lady Macbeth and the witches. I believe that he would have killed Duncan, Banqou, Fleance, Lady Macduff, or Lady Macbeths son without the influence of Lady Macbeth or the witches.

stefo said...

John says that everyone is evil. i disagree. I do believe that evil is an outside force. It shows your test of will to see if you invite the evil into your soul when evil tempts you. Everyone makes mistakes. If men were inheritly evil the world would be a different place then the world we have today. I believe the world is a mix of good and bad and a test of will

Louiseb said...

I agree with Rachel... society seems to show people evil, maybe people start out innocent and as they grow and learn both in school and socially minds are opened to bad things like greed and selfishness

elisabethc said...

Javon, wow! I really like the comment that you made about the word "duff". That is a really good point about how it means to be deceptive or to cover up. I think that Macduff was definately the opposite of Macbeth and made the story completely different because of the character that was added in that was the opposite of Macbeth. It then made Macbeth have an opposite that would end the story by killing him. It that made any sense at all.

aaronw said...

mrs. smith- i don't think that MAcbeth would have murdered anyone if he hadn't heard the prophecy...

kristenw said...

molly and nicole -
i like that idea about the heads. we should bring it up in discussion.

ZachH said...

I have a question> Does Macbeth suffer more than he deserves or did he get what was coming to him?

I personally feel that he gets more than he deserves. I mean really the witches tainted him to make him driven to do this. Isn't it possible Macduff could have just gotten him over thrown and out of the kingdom instead of killing him? I think his realization that what he has done was wrong, is better punishment than death.

BrianC said...

One more question before my computer dies.

Could it be that the way Macbeth or Jack were raised has changed/influenced thier desicions to follow thier ambition and that it could've lead them down the path of a tragic hero?

Lukez said...

chelsea - I think that at the start of the play, Macbeth is challenging the system byu killing macbeth. But as the story goes on, I think that Macbeth becomes the system and Macduff becomes the one that is challenging the system by challenging Macbeth.

Javonm said...

Alex- My views of Macbeth have changed throughout the book drastically. Getting first impressions of Macbeth I thought he was a good nobleman. As the story went on, after his first murder I began to feel sympathetic for Macbeth because his thoughts and emotions were being toyed with by the witches. After the book went on and he continued to murder people, I felt less and less sympathetic for him becuase he has choice and opinion. It is his own fault for letting his emotions take him over and allow him to continue killing. If he really didn't want to do it he didn't have to. He had free will the witches only gave him choice and told him what would happen to him. If the first prophecy came true naturally, Macbeth should have let the proceeding prophecies come true naturally instead of tampering with the natural order of life and how his life was supposed to be lead.

alexd said...

People are not born evil. Everything in life is a choice and whether you choose to commit evil deeds (like Macbeth did) is up to you.

nilec said...

rachel said that when people are young they are so innocent. i agree with her and i think its the world they grow up in that creates the attidide that of "I want. I need". Because we have many things in our world that people want or think they need because someone else has it. So basically jealousy has alot to do with evil and the advanced world we grow up in.

MollyS said...

go for it kristen

amyw said...

stefo---I agree! The evil needs to be tempted in order to come out; it isn't necessarily always there. Everyone has two sides but the evil must be enabled. It's there, just kind of idle if that makes sense! It's your choice if you give into the thing that tempts the evil.

Liap said...

We have to leave in like three minutes for anyone who cares (I don't want to disrupt the conversation)

stefo said...

Going off of what cheslea is saying that sometimes your must start with the wrong thing to end with the right thing. I agree.There are many examples of that throughout history to proves this

ZachH said...

Thanks meganu. I see your point.

Lukez said...

I meant by macbeth killing Duncan.

aaronw said...

mrs. smith brought up the idea of all men being evil...
i believe that everyone is born with sin, because of the fall of man in the bible... since it is a banned book i don't know if i can quote it, but we were supposed to not be evil, but now we are. what does everyone else think?

Louiseb said...

I thin k that Macbeth is at heart a good person and the prophecy, the witches, and lady Macbeth showed him evil and selfishness and turned him into a terrible person that is willing to kill people in their sleep. I think that deep down Macbeth always knew that what he was doing was wrong he just didnt know how to stop it

clarao said...

I thought it was interesting that Lady Macbeth was Macbeth's main influence and the person that was keeping him going at first, but when she dies, he has become a completely different person and doesn't really seem to care as much about her.

nicolek said...

Molly-
yeah because blood represents sin, water is like purity, so the head must mean something.

Well it was were the brain is and it is where we make our decisions and stuff so i'm not really sure what it means.

to what Racheal said: I think that society does make things evil because we do all start out pure and then outside things influence us to be evil but i think that the lack of society when we have already been in a society can also cause us to be evil. All the boys in LOF have already been in a society so they have already been introduced to evil but then when society was stripped away a new evil surfaced. It is a lot like the book The Call of the Wild. The dog Buck was a selfish dog in society but then when he was stripped of it he was forced to channg and kill and be a different evil

alyssas said...

Zach H.- I believe that in the begginging, Macbeth doesn't deserve what happens to him, but as the story progresses and Macbeth commits more murders and sins, then I believe that he does deserve what happened to him.

SerenaL said...

In the out loud discussion, they are talking about Macbeth and Macduff, and this made me think that in the Roman Polansky movie, Macbeth has his sword to Macduffs throat, and could have easily killed him then and there, but he lets him go. Why doesn't he kill Macduff when he has the chance? Guilt?

aaronw said...

good discussion everyone...

meganu said...

alexd-
My view about Macbeth as a person changes throughout the book. In the beginning, he seems to be an innocent person who would never kill anyone. Even Lady Macbeth herself says that he is too kind to commit to such an attrocity. Once he starts killing his friends, I didn't like him. I thought he deserved to die.

amandah said...

alexd-
I agree with you he needed that push to start of the evil doing and as the book progressed he didn't need to be pushed anymore, he would just go off and kill people and further in to the book he doesn't even show that he consults Lady Macbeth about killing people.

chelseas said...

Brian – I agree that if Jack, Ralph, and Macbeth were raised differently, that they could have had different aspects and views toward life. I think that they would have different motivation.

Javonm said...

I agree with you Luke about my comment I had thought all along that they were oppposites, but after reading that it helped to assure me.

alexd said...

Just a last thought i really enjoyed this way of testing!!!!!!

stefo said...

Just for reference sake I will share the idea of orginal sin in the Catholic sake. The snake tempted Eve, Eve tempted adam and they both cursed humanity staining the soul of man. Jesus was considered to absolve us of that orginal sin

nilec said...

rachel said that competitiveness is a part of evil. i agree because the reason Macbeth killed those people is because they become his competition in becoming king

maddief said...

In LOF Jack and Ralph's rivalry is similar to that of Macduff and Macbeth's in Macbeth. Although as characters I would compare Ralph and Macduff, plot-wise Ralph is more like Macbeth, while Jack is like Macduff. Jack left Ralph's side in order to start his own tribe and eventually claim the island, and Macduff went up against Macbeth to reclaim Scotland. Ralph and Macbeth were the government in these two stories, and because Jack and Macduff didn't approve of their role they challenged the system. Macbeth and Ralph were overthrown, but they still faced fate. Macbeth faced the oncoming army, but this was because of his confidence and the prophecy saying he could not be killed by someone of woman born. Still, going against a giant army is nerve racking enough and he showed bravery in his actions; he could have fled but instead he stared fate in the face. Ralph returned to Castle Rock even when he knew that Jack's tribe might kill him, and he faced them alone. He is like Macbeth because although death was imminent he showed bravery and determination.

JohnB said...

I'm sorry... I still don't under stand why Macbeth found it absolutely necessary to kill Duncan.

JohnB said...

From class I said that evil originates from humans themselves. I had some disagreements. I heard that a baby is "pure" and "perfect". But that's just what you would expect. Coming on three or four years old, it's all about me, me, me. I want this, I want that. And that's just the beginning. They start thinking like that when they can talk. And I know for a fact that any civilized (or uncivilized for that matter) human being has a dark or bad side, that some deep and hidden gut feeling want to do something totally bad or evil.

JohnB said...

alexd-
I agree with you about how we progressed with Macbeth. I did not expect at all that I would actually enjoy reading Macbeth in the end.