Since I am supposed to present tomorrow, I thought that I would just post these questions to help spark your blog and then if I dont get to present, I kind of did anyways!!! So, here they are: 1) On page 72 What is the significance that Mildred only understood or seemed interested in the phrase "That favorite subject, myself" that montag read out of a book??
2) On page 75 montag says that his hands are numb, but he is usually blaming them for actions. What does this mean? Do it signify a change in Montag and his body, are the hands listening? Because later the hands pick up the books "by themselves" again. What do you think is happening?
3) Why doesn't Mildred on page 77 answer Montage when he asks " Does the white clown love you? and " Does your family love you, love you very much, love you with their heart and soul" What do you think she is feeling, what is she thinking??
4) Do you think that, on page 82, when the statement is made that they have everything they need to be happy, but they arent happy: is this the same for us in our world or in our society?
5) Do you think that running a risk is the good part of dying? With out risk, is there life?
6) Why is Montag suddenly so motivated? Was it the death of clarisse or was it the woman in the house?
Kristen-im not sure if im discussing tomorrow, so i'll respond to a couple of your questions.
2. I thought it was interesting because when he was doing something he knew was wrong, his hands were "numb" like he jsut couldnt belive he was doing this...then when he started to get control of what was happening in his life, he could feel and control what was happening.
4. That's weird to think that we could be living in a society like this one (where we werent truly happy) and we had no idea. But hopefully that feeling that people get when they are so excutiatingly happy, is completly real.
5. I think initailly if you're not afraid of death, then your more willing to risk your life. Or, on a smaller scale, if you're not afraid of gettign yelled at by your parents, then your more likly to take a risk and not listen to them.
I think that technically there can be life, living breathing people, but without risk you never understand the thrill of victory or the agony of defeat. Living has no point in this society. You have to have a purpose or else you are disposable.
macm- If there is no point in living in this society, could that explain all of the attempted suicides? Do people realize they are living without a purpose and then kill themselves? Maybe if people are expendable, that's why Montag and the firemen burned the old lady.
morgant- I think that on the train he was really really trying to concentrate on reading the Bible, but then he kept hearing the Dentine cermercial and it kept getting stuck in his head. He was getting so upset with himself
that is a good point macm, and if you are afraid to take a risk every once in awhile, then really what is the point of life? there is no excitement involved
I wonder if Mildred is actually starting to think about her life when Montag asks her if her 'family' loves her. She may be thinking, you know...I'm not sure...
ryanm-Do you think that Faber will help Montag with his problems at home? Will he give suggestions to him about how to improve his relationship with his wife. Do you think he will give his personal opinion about his wife?
morgant- I was confused about that part too. I think that he maight have just been driving himself so crazy trying to desifer the actual meaning of the line he continued to repeat. He was trying to find some meaning out of the Bible he was reading, it drives him "crazy" that he can't understand this.
alexf- i do think that Faber will be listening to Montag at home. Even though Faber and Montag have gained more trust toward each other, I still get this feeling that Faber still has doubt in their relationship. What do you think?
i dont think Faber was baiting Montag, i think that Faber is too old and needs "drones" as he calls them, to go and do the dirty work, and Montag is willing to be the drone
morgant- Montag was freaking out about Denham's Dentrifice, I think the other people on the train were chanting it or something. That confused me too. But I think the reason he went crazy was because he was trying to memorize the Bible and they were chanting, so it was hard.
maddisonm-Cowardice plays a huge role in the story because in a few points in the story when a character has a chance to do something bold and challenge the system, the ignore it or avoid it because they're scared of what will happen.
macm-I totally understand what you are saying. Lots of times, people suggest ideas "jokingly" but deep inside they know that that's what they want to happen. (I've done it before :) I think that the idea just popped up in his head and without thinking, he said it. It definitly helped
Morgant- I think that she will probably give it a moments thought and then sink back into her comfort zone. It takes energy and passion to challenge the system, Mildred has neither and it would be easier for her to just go back to her old habits.
melissaz-yeah. That makes sense. I think that he really wants to uderstand books, but he just doesn't get it. Especially the Bible. That is a hard book to read!
morgant-I think the train has sound speakers that blast subliminal ads, and Montag wanted to pay attention to the book, but the messages and the people saying them distracted them. He was so scared that he would forget the book that he went berserk.
Well, Macm, I thought that Faber brought up that plan because he might have been planning/ thinking it as something that could be done for a long time. People always think of alternative plans for things that they want and he might have just said it because it was on his mind but he knew it couldn't come true. That is, until Montag believed it could.
Cristina- To go with your last question, I think that it was a mixture of everything that started to surface at this point. The death of Clarisse brought on the thought that she really did make him happy and make him actually think for once, I also think that the woman in the house really effected him. He seemed really shook up about that instance. I think everything makes him want to really learn.
Maddisonm- I totally think that Faber still has doubts about his and Montag's relationships. After all, he's a FIREMAN!!! Personally, it would take me a while to gain the trust of someone that burns other people
macm - I was thinking about something like that. Then I was thinking that it also has something to do with the representation of the society. The society is telling the people in it to do things and they don't have the knowledge to know if these things are right or if they are wrong. Montag as a boy didn't know that he wouldn't be able to fill the sieve no matter how hard he tried, it would always be empty and worthless.
Morgan T, I think that Montag on the train finally just burst. He had been holding all these feelings in for such a long time (someone said something about a balloon bursting) and he used this metaphor as a way to show that he was finally going agains the society for real.
ryad- that is an interesting point. How did "interacting" T.Vs come along? How did they Hound come along? If no one is allowed to think then how did all these forms of technology come along?
ryad- i agree, if no one took any riskes, then we would have no where near the same kind of society we have today, brcause inventors took risks to invent the technology. if Edison hadnt taken a risk and failed a million times with the invention of the lightbulb, then we wouldnt have the lightbulb.
I think the seive and the sand represents Montag was fighting a osing battle. The harder you try to prevail, the harder it is to resist your opposition. What this one girl said in the middle about how that "older brother" act is very common, and the sand and the seive was considered mild; I think that when Montag cries, it shows he's different, even just a little, but he's different all the same.
going back to why i think that why maontag went berserk on the train is because he is under so much stress from hiding the books, the death of clarisse, the questioning of his job, and the ongoing struggle trying to connect with his wife that he finally broke.
Morgant- I've read this book before,and I'm almost positive that while trying to read the Bible, (The lines of the field) he kept hearing the cermercial of Denham's Dentifrice playing on the Subway. If it helps at all, the lines are on page 78
I like what they just said in the center of the circle. Because that is so true. He is trying so hard to learn what is in the book, yet he can't it just keeps slipping. However, what is the significance of the cousin telling him to do that when he knows he will fail? He doesn't ever tell him that the sand will never stay and we never really know if Montag ever learnt that. Is it the society? Or what?
morgant- I do think that Montag is starting to get Mildred to really think about her life and what she thinks as "family" an dwhat is important to her. She seems taken back and she may be trying to put on a front by replying that it is a silly question, but I do think that really turned her crank and my have gotten her to rally thinkabout life.
I just had a quick thought about the woman in the house;
Is it possible that the woman symbolizes a book? They burn books without questioning the content and they burn the woman without knowing anything about her. She could have been a really important person that would change the world (like books) and she just goes down.
I'm sorry it was from a previous chapter but I couldn't hold the thought in.
maddisonm- All of the technology was probably created by the government. I think that people in the government are allowed to read, are educated and can still invent things to make life easier.
Morgant- I'm pretty sure she's dead now, when this society wants to get rid of someone it's probably pretty easy to do it with the technology they have.
morgant- he is trying to do both. like someone said before, i think that the train has subliminal advertising, and he was trying to read the bible, but the messages were affecting the way he thought.
Morgant- I know what you mean by about Clarisse. It seems like it's not really true that she's dead. After all, the author gave her such a huge role and then just killed her! But really, i think that Bradbury was just trying to show that death was so put aside in that period of time. This is going back to the whole, why don't they care about death thing!
Okay here is my idea on the inner circle conversation. I think that they were taught to read, because he did say that he had read pamplets, but was never taught to undrestand what he read. Even now in this advanced honors class, a lot of people are having trouble understanding when it is a metaphor or real. zthe only way you learn is a lot of experience.
morgant- i think that in the book mildred told montag that clarisse and her family did die, and I think that she told him clarisse was hit by a car or something but i'm not sure about that.
ryanm - I think that somebody has to be allowed to think, because if they can't there's no way of creating a system that is even partially functional. Like the quote on the board; "THe problems that exist in the world today cannot be resolbed by the level of thinking that created them" - it shows that the current system will never be replaced by the people now, or at lease until they start "thinking"
Keke that is a great thought! to add to that would be how Montag realized that Books are lifetimes and that people put their whole lives into them. great thought Keke
kekek- i agree, that they burn things without actually taking time to interpret their meaning just like they burnt the woman without questioning her.(but she kind of burnt herself).
keke- I do think that it is a good point. I never really thought about that point. I think that that is one aspect of the woman's purpose, I tink the woman carries a lot of importance and symbolizism in the whole plot.
catem- I think that you are totally right! People knew how to read, but they didn't know what they were reading! Does anyone think that this is happening today? Do people of today know how to read but not really KNOW how to read?
Ryanm, you said (but she kind of burnt herself) what if sympolically that's what books did? People were unhappy with them and the people in this story make books sound like a terrible thing and that they deserve to be burned.
They know how to read for sure. Just because they don't read books that doesn't mean all writing can't exist. There'd still be pamphlets, advertisments and stuff like that everywhere you go.
mitchs-That is an interesting point!! That seems very logical! I wonder why Bradbury has not said anything about the government yet. Maybe he is leaving it up to the reader to form their own opinion.
maddisonm-I think the bombers stand for everything they ignore that could destroy them, like war, and the absence of free thought. Also, every time the bombers go over the people just ignore them. The bombers also fly across whenever a significant event happens to Montag, so they are plot advancers and metaphors.
morgant- The public is generally afraid of firemen because they are almost above the law, they can burn anyone one anything (mostly books) whenever they want to.
HUGE DISCUSSION STARTER************* Okay, what do you think Bradbury is trying to say when Montag is publically reading on the Train, yet no one says anything. Does the public really aprove of books and they just don't want to say anything, or do they dissapprove and are too scared to say anything???
mattw-i also agree with you because i pictured clarisse as just a calm girl who everyone sees as king of shy and wierd, and i just don;t see her arguing or fighting.
alexf- That is a really good question. I think that you may be right. They may have noticed it, but didn't want to turn him in because they didn't see the problem with books.
I wonder if they've started colonizing space, considering how far in the future it is. I think they could also climatize Antartica so it's warm and inhabitable. Do they care about penguins (wildlife)?
Alexf, so I wondered that too but I also thought back to when Clarisse said that people don't talk anymore and all that stuff it just made me think that maybe people are too out of the flow or braindead that they didn't notice he was doing something wrong in the first place.
alexf- from what I know of the people that live in this society, they don't notice much and are kind of self-absorbed. If they did see him reading, how would it benefit them to turn him in and if they saw him reading, how would they know it's a book as opposed to a really big manual about the train. They hardly see books outside being burned, how could they recognize one.
It's kind of like spy stuff. It lets Faber listen to Montags conversations and Montag can do the same to Faber. That way Faber can tell him how to act with the firemen.
maddisonm - I was wondering about that two. Because they always come into the story and it seems like the lines are worded the exact same way. Also I was thinking that they always seem to fly accross in a time of the book where there is great conflict. I couldn't find it the other two times, but I know that it occured on page 93 when Montag and Faber were arguing about the plan, then they stop and listen to it and mention that it is like the trembling inside of them.
mitch- it was like an earphone, but it was more like a headset, because he could talk to Faber, and Faber could talk back, also Faber could hear what was going on with Montag too.
Morgant/ALL- Could the society know what Montag was going through on the train and thats why they didn't say anything. have they all read books and know what it's like to desire to find out what is hidden. Isn't everyone like this? RElating to the banned book discussion, do we desire to know the unknown? Is that why everyone likes going to fortune tellers/people like that???
Selena, I think that the people votee, but the government so heavily influences who they want them to vote for that it's like they aren't voting at all. But then wouldn't the person in power continuosly make himself leader? do we still have our current gov't?
Do you think this chapter is called "the seive and the sand" because if you put sand into a sieve, the bigger peices get caught and the smaller slip through. How does this fit into the story?
dawniellen- Maybe it's like in the Uglies series. The specials can't cry, it's physically impossible because of genetic alteations, ut in the end Tally cries even though she's a special. Montag might cry if a thought is powerrful enough.
dawnielle- Maybe that Montag thinks that it is useless to cry when society won't change. He knows the power that technology has over people, and they wouldn't want to change. Look at Mildred for example...
macm - do they really need to change their society? As long as it's working, why should they change it. Dont get me wrong, I'd rather die than live in that society, but still?
mitchs - the green bullet shaped thing was like a small walki- talki so that Faber could talk to Montag could talk to Faber. Also, Faber could hear what the poeple around him were saying at all times. So it was basically a spy network
Kekek-about you other comment, i totally understnd what you are saying, The people of that society are so self absorbed that maybe they just didn't care. But what about when the lady that burned had her neighbor turn her in? Did she just want the show of a burnin house???
whitneys- I agree, form Montag and Faber's reaction it seems like it happens as a daily routine. Maybe it is representing the fight with in the society. Maybe there will be further importance later in the book, maybe not. What do you think?
Keke, well oviously the big 'ppieces of sand" are going to be the most important part. perhaps it means people and the big pieces of sand are the important people who challenge the system while everyone else just sinks through.
maybe there could already be an underground society that wants to print and read books,and they are all ready to fight with their robots they have created to fight with, and all they need is a leader to organize them, and to tell them what to do.
macm- Thats what I was thinking to. Like in Specials they have to change themselves because the government won't help them. Montag has to change himself and how he thinks.
alexf- the curiosity of the human mind is our downfall. we desire to know everything, no matter what it is. that is why we like to read banned things, is to find why. that is the downfall of mankind is the question "why?" you can tell a three year old that the stove is hot, but they ask "why?" and reach up.....and burn their hand. and in the workspace, if your boss says "hey dont push that button" and you ask "why" and push the button and the power goes out. sure there are different levelsof curiosity, but its still there no matter what.
alexf- Something may have happened between the old woman and the lady that made the lady want to turn her in. Or the lady was a model citizens and thinks of it as her responsiblity to turn her in whereas other people are basically apathetic when it comes to the business of other people.
How quickly do you think this society actually came about? It seems as though it came on fast, because people remember a different time where there was thought. How do you think that a society as dominate as this since it came about so fast? Do you even think that it is a government, or just firemen keeping everyone in check?
New question... It seems as though the rest of the world hates this society. Do you think that the opposers of it could all gather and rebel, or do you think that everyone now lacks that ability due to the fact that there is hardly any interaction?
Last question...Do you think that people are aloud to travel to other parts of the world?
mattw- as it was said before, The peole on the train probably didn't turn Montag in because it had no benefit to them. Turning him in would only cause more work...but if that is true, they the lady that burned with her books said that her neighbor turned her in. Why would her neighbor do that yet the citizens didn't turn montag in. Does that help?
ryanm- That's a great thought! If we just left stuff alone we wouldn't be in danger but we might not be happy either. Curiosity killed the cat after all...
ryanm- if curiosity and the question why are our downfall, then could the government be trying to create a super race where people dont need to tink andthere for have no downfall?
Ok i agree with the outside circle. They are talking about emotion and love. I think that they know what it is but they lack it. I think that Montag is starting to re-discover what feelings are. I mean he is starting to discover what happiness is.
catem- People are probably not allowed to travel to other countries, because the rest of the world is probably different than the terrible state the US is in, so if people found out what was actuallly going on, the government would be in trouble. Also, people probably don't want to go anywhere else, they just want to watch TV.
alexf - I LIKE YOUR QUESTION! That part really confused me because I was thinking why he wasn't getting arrested for holding the book, and although the people on the train did react, it wasn't the kind of reaction that I would have guessed would have occured. But that might be true that all the people have gond through that. Yet when you think of Mildred who is the average person in this society, she is not at all interested in reading or learning.
Mitchl~I agree I think that there must be some underground society. I mean there clearly are people who disagree with what the society, and they seem pretty intelligent so you think that they would gather.
katyj- a goverment trying to create a race where there was no questions would be elimanating the human race. where ever there is a person...someone is asking why
dawnielle- Well, in a way they do. They don't want people to feel emotions because that could lead to challenging the system, and that's exactly what they don't want to happen. When you feel emotions, you get ideas, and that leads to challenging the system.
I think the people could go other places, but it would be pretty hard (like you need to get permission from the government or something) but that no one really wants to. There wouldn't be much of a point because they are basically completely ignorant of the the rest of the world and when they do know about it, all they know is the negative (like when Montag is talking to Mildred about poor starving people and how their life is so much better)
or they couldn't go at all, like in some countries today.
ryanm- I get what you are saying. So we desire to know why things happen, but in society today, do you think that people will go to untold lengths just to find out why? Or, do you think that they are just bored? For example, with the banned books, are people going to go SearCHING for books just to prove that they can, or do they really desire to know what the books say??/
dawniellen - I don't think that they have eliminated emotion from the society. They have just elimanted people's opportunity to think, or rather they just make it very difficult. And therefore the society really doesn't feel I guess. Because honestly, if you didn't think about your dog dying, it was just a fact of life that you were told; then the thoughts wouldn't provoke the emotions...Thats just what I think.
whitneys- I'm not really saying that they have eliminated all emotions. I'm just saying that yes they have eliminated their thoughts so they don't need to worry about challenging the system.
Morgant- well ceratin emotions may stimulate challening the system more than others. Like if you knew you were being deprived of something, you might challenge the system to gain access to it. But if you are happy, then you don't want to challenge the system so they would want to instill that emotion in the society.
catem- that is an interesting point. Can they travel to other places? Maybe they are told that they don't need to travel to other places, that this is everything they need. Or maybe the people don't have a disire to travel to other places, they don't really care. And also has Clarisse always lived in Montags "part of town"?
Whitneys- You bring up a great point. Mildred is the average person and she doesn't want anythin to do with books. But why then did she automatically want to burn the books. She approves him killing an old lady because she had books. What would the people on the train think? Do they just ingore him beause they don't care, or do they sympathize for him?
So if anyone was listening to the inside circle about crying. Tyler said that Montag cried when he was little. Was there a part that said he cried when he was little because I don't remember a part like that
ryanm- Yes, i see what you are saying. But before we had a discussion about if banned books should be banned. Do you think that people want to get a banned book to learn or to prove a point?
Maybe books represent freedom. I mean I think that this takes place in America, and I bet that they have heard about one freedom one time or another and are trying to find it. With the fact that they don't know emotions they are now trying to find a place where you can find the inbetween emotions.
macm- Well that is true, but what I'm trying to say is that they want the people to feel happy. But, it really is a cover up. They aren't learning anything. It kind of relates to material things. One might say, "If I just get this, I will be happy." But, we all know that material things don't makes us completely happy. The government just want certain emotions gone. They don't need to be challenged.
With emotions and crying that reminds me of the holiday because something happened to her so she does not want to cry any more and she lost the ability because she forced herself for so long not to cry. Do you think that something happened to them, is the influence of others making them not want to have emotions?
mitchs- That's a great point. I completly forgot about the seashells. Maybe they were acting like Mildred and just wanted everything/everyone to go away. They probably were listening to seashells so that they could escape. Maybe the fact that Montag was reading a book never crossed their mind,. Great point!
Emos cut themselves because they want to feel something no matter what it is. The people in the book don't really know how to feel anything emotionally unless it's an extreme so they can result to physical feeling.
Like Ms. Smith is saying, the government doesn't give the people time to wonder about the society. They keep them busy with, once again, material things.
Alexf~The people on the train don't really have any feelings toward Montag. Like Ms. Smith said they only see the extremes. They only know what they think of him.
Alexf~The people on the train don't really have any feelings toward Montag. Like Ms. Smith said they only see the extremes. They only know what they think of him.
leslie i agree with you completely. Like when mildred was talking about driving and she was like you hit rabbitts and sometimes dogs. that really annoyed me.
alexf- I totally agree! If someone looks at a person with a black clothes or something, that's all they see. That person could be a rocket scientist for all they knew.
well not everyone is wanting to feel something in this book b/c mildred was shocked when montag showed her the secret stash of books he has, but she didn't want to feel that way b/c all she wants to do is watch tv or watever the relatives is.
Alexf~I think that our society today is leading ot a society like Montag's in the future. No matter how hard you try, you make a first impression of someone. If they don't have any known feelings, you can't make those mean first impressions. Does that make since?
The government is handing happiness to the citizens on a platter, but because they didn't have to work for it, it means nothing to them. The government should have remembered the phrase, "Getting there is half the fun."
195 comments:
Since I am supposed to present tomorrow, I thought that I would just post these questions to help spark your blog and then if I dont get to present, I kind of did anyways!!!
So,
here they are:
1) On page 72 What is the significance that Mildred only understood or seemed interested in the phrase "That favorite subject, myself" that montag read out of a book??
2) On page 75 montag says that his hands are numb, but he is usually blaming them for actions. What does this mean? Do it signify a change in Montag and his body, are the hands listening? Because later the hands pick up the books "by themselves" again. What do you think is happening?
3) Why doesn't Mildred on page 77 answer Montage when he asks " Does the white clown love you? and " Does your family love you, love you very much, love you with their heart and soul" What do you think she is feeling, what is she thinking??
4) Do you think that, on page 82, when the statement is made that they have everything they need to be happy, but they arent happy: is this the same for us in our world or in our society?
5) Do you think that running a risk is the good part of dying? With out risk, is there life?
6) Why is Montag suddenly so motivated? Was it the death of clarisse or was it the woman in the house?
Kristen-im not sure if im discussing tomorrow, so i'll respond to a couple of your questions.
2. I thought it was interesting because when he was doing something he knew was wrong, his hands were "numb" like he jsut couldnt belive he was doing this...then when he started to get control of what was happening in his life, he could feel and control what was happening.
4. That's weird to think that we could be living in a society like this one (where we werent truly happy) and we had no idea. But hopefully that feeling that people get when they are so excutiatingly happy, is completly real.
5. I think initailly if you're not afraid of death, then your more willing to risk your life. Or, on a smaller scale, if you're not afraid of gettign yelled at by your parents, then your more likly to take a risk and not listen to them.
I think that technically there can be life, living breathing people, but without risk you never understand the thrill of victory or the agony of defeat. Living has no point in this society. You have to have a purpose or else you are disposable.
Do you think that Faber will be listening to Montag at home and helf him with his personal life along with Beatty?
What is the significance of the sieve and the sand? What does it show of the Society?
whitneys-I thought that maybe it meant that Montag was sifiting through the mire of what was false to find true facts and ideas.
What happened on the train when Montag like went...ballistic? I'm confused.
What role does cowardice play in this story?
macm- If there is no point in living in this society, could that explain all of the attempted suicides? Do people realize they are living without a purpose and then kill themselves? Maybe if people are expendable, that's why Montag and the firemen burned the old lady.
alexf- i think Faber will listen to Montag at home unless Mntag remembers to take out the devices
morgant- I think that on the train he was really really trying to concentrate on reading the Bible, but then he kept hearing the Dentine cermercial and it kept getting stuck in his head. He was getting so upset with himself
that is a good point macm, and if you are afraid to take a risk every once in awhile, then really what is the point of life? there is no excitement involved
I was wondering if you guys think that when Faber brought up the plan as a joke, he was really just baiting Montag into helping him?
I wonder if Mildred is actually starting to think about her life when Montag asks her if her 'family' loves her. She may be thinking, you know...I'm not sure...
I think on the train Montag just started going crazy over stress and what he was going to do. I found it confusing too but that's how I took it.
ryanm-Do you think that Faber will help Montag with his problems at home? Will he give suggestions to him about how to improve his relationship with his wife. Do you think he will give his personal opinion about his wife?
morgant- I was confused about that part too. I think that he maight have just been driving himself so crazy trying to desifer the actual meaning of the line he continued to repeat. He was trying to find some meaning out of the Bible he was reading, it drives him "crazy" that he can't understand this.
alexf- i do think that Faber will be listening to Montag at home. Even though Faber and Montag have gained more trust toward each other, I still get this feeling that Faber still has doubt in their relationship. What do you think?
i dont think Faber was baiting Montag, i think that Faber is too old and needs "drones" as he calls them, to go and do the dirty work, and Montag is willing to be the drone
morgant- Montag was freaking out about Denham's Dentrifice, I think the other people on the train were chanting it or something. That confused me too. But I think the reason he went crazy was because he was trying to memorize the Bible and they were chanting, so it was hard.
maddisonm-Cowardice plays a huge role in the story because in a few points in the story when a character has a chance to do something bold and challenge the system, the ignore it or avoid it because they're scared of what will happen.
If nobody took any risks a lot of things we have wouldn't have been invented. People take risks and try new things creating the world we have today.
macm-I totally understand what you are saying. Lots of times, people suggest ideas "jokingly" but deep inside they know that that's what they want to happen. (I've done it before :) I think that the idea just popped up in his head and without thinking, he said it. It definitly helped
Morgant- I think that she will probably give it a moments thought and then sink back into her comfort zone. It takes energy and passion to challenge the system, Mildred has neither and it would be easier for her to just go back to her old habits.
melissaz-yeah. That makes sense. I think that he really wants to uderstand books, but he just doesn't get it. Especially the Bible. That is a hard book to read!
morgant-I think the train has sound speakers that blast subliminal ads, and Montag wanted to pay attention to the book, but the messages and the people saying them distracted them. He was so scared that he would forget the book that he went berserk.
macm- I agree with you. Haha!
Well, Macm, I thought that Faber brought up that plan because he might have been planning/ thinking it as something that could be done for a long time. People always think of alternative plans for things that they want and he might have just said it because it was on his mind but he knew it couldn't come true. That is, until Montag believed it could.
if that makes sense
Also, cowardice plays into the paranioa and lack of trust with people.
Cristina- To go with your last question, I think that it was a mixture of everything that started to surface at this point. The death of Clarisse brought on the thought that she really did make him happy and make him actually think for once, I also think that the woman in the house really effected him. He seemed really shook up about that instance. I think everything makes him want to really learn.
Maddisonm- I totally think that Faber still has doubts about his and Montag's relationships. After all, he's a FIREMAN!!! Personally, it would take me a while to gain the trust of someone that burns other people
macm - I was thinking about something like that. Then I was thinking that it also has something to do with the representation of the society. The society is telling the people in it to do things and they don't have the knowledge to know if these things are right or if they are wrong. Montag as a boy didn't know that he wouldn't be able to fill the sieve no matter how hard he tried, it would always be empty and worthless.
okay...I'm getting different answers from everybody. Was he reading a line of the Bible on the train, or was he listening to ads or something?
Selenam- Thanks for explaining the train incident, it really confused me. Subliminal ads make much more sense than people randomly chanting.
Morgan T, I think that Montag on the train finally just burst. He had been holding all these feelings in for such a long time (someone said something about a balloon bursting) and he used this metaphor as a way to show that he was finally going agains the society for real.
ryad- that is an interesting point. How did "interacting" T.Vs come along? How did they Hound come along? If no one is allowed to think then how did all these forms of technology come along?
ryad- i agree, if no one took any riskes, then we would have no where near the same kind of society we have today, brcause inventors took risks to invent the technology. if Edison hadnt taken a risk and failed a million times with the invention of the lightbulb, then we wouldnt have the lightbulb.
I think the seive and the sand represents Montag was fighting a osing battle. The harder you try to prevail, the harder it is to resist your opposition. What this one girl said in the middle about how that "older brother" act is very common, and the sand and the seive was considered mild; I think that when Montag cries, it shows he's different, even just a little, but he's different all the same.
he was listening to adds i'm pretty sure.
going back to why i think that why maontag went berserk on the train is because he is under so much stress from hiding the books, the death of clarisse, the questioning of his job, and the ongoing struggle trying to connect with his wife that he finally broke.
Morgant- I've read this book before,and I'm almost positive that while trying to read the Bible, (The lines of the field) he kept hearing the cermercial of Denham's Dentifrice playing on the Subway. If it helps at all, the lines are on page 78
What does Sieve mean anyways? I'm confused.
Do we know for sure that Clarisse is dead? I think that is kind of sudden. I mean, she prompted Montag's thoughts, but she is dead now?
I like what they just said in the center of the circle. Because that is so true. He is trying so hard to learn what is in the book, yet he can't it just keeps slipping. However, what is the significance of the cousin telling him to do that when he knows he will fail? He doesn't ever tell him that the sand will never stay and we never really know if Montag ever learnt that. Is it the society? Or what?
lesliel-a sieve is a bowl with holes in it.
morgant- I do think that Montag is starting to get Mildred to really think about her life and what she thinks as "family" an dwhat is important to her. She seems taken back and she may be trying to put on a front by replying that it is a silly question, but I do think that really turned her crank and my have gotten her to rally thinkabout life.
I just had a quick thought about the woman in the house;
Is it possible that the woman symbolizes a book? They burn books without questioning the content and they burn the woman without knowing anything about her. She could have been a really important person that would change the world (like books) and she just goes down.
I'm sorry it was from a previous chapter but I couldn't hold the thought in.
maddisonm- All of the technology was probably created by the government. I think that people in the government are allowed to read, are educated and can still invent things to make life easier.
Ooooooh ok thank you!
Morgant- I'm pretty sure she's dead now, when this society wants to get rid of someone it's probably pretty easy to do it with the technology they have.
morgant- he is trying to do both. like someone said before, i think that the train has subliminal advertising, and he was trying to read the bible, but the messages were affecting the way he thought.
Bombers have been talked about a couple times in the story. What role do you think they stand for?
Okay. Thanks everybody for answering that question! I get it now! =D
Morgant- I know what you mean by about Clarisse. It seems like it's not really true that she's dead. After all, the author gave her such a huge role and then just killed her! But really, i think that Bradbury was just trying to show that death was so put aside in that period of time. This is going back to the whole, why don't they care about death thing!
Okay here is my idea on the inner circle conversation. I think that they were taught to read, because he did say that he had read pamplets, but was never taught to undrestand what he read. Even now in this advanced honors class, a lot of people are having trouble understanding when it is a metaphor or real. zthe only way you learn is a lot of experience.
morgant- i think that in the book mildred told montag that clarisse and her family did die, and I think that she told him clarisse was hit by a car or something but i'm not sure about that.
ryanm - I think that somebody has to be allowed to think, because if they can't there's no way of creating a system that is even partially functional. Like the quote on the board; "THe problems that exist in the world today cannot be resolbed by the level of thinking that created them" - it shows that the current system will never be replaced by the people now, or at lease until they start "thinking"
Keke that is a great thought! to add to that would be how Montag realized that Books are lifetimes and that people put their whole lives into them. great thought Keke
kekek- i agree, that they burn things without actually taking time to interpret their meaning just like they burnt the woman without questioning her.(but she kind of burnt herself).
alexf- Maybe Clarisse is still alive and fighting to bring back the old ways and it just looks like she's dead.
keke- I do think that it is a good point. I never really thought about that point. I think that that is one aspect of the woman's purpose, I tink the woman carries a lot of importance and symbolizism in the whole plot.
How do you think that the normal public views the firefighters?
Dangers? Good Samaritans (probably not)? People that have issues?
What do you think?
catem- I think that you are totally right! People knew how to read, but they didn't know what they were reading! Does anyone think that this is happening today? Do people of today know how to read but not really KNOW how to read?
macm - clarisse doesn't seem like the "fighting type" eeven fighting with words
macm- i agree maybe Clarisse is not dead and trying to get back to Montag and give advice or join Montag and Fabers rebellion
Ryanm, you said (but she kind of burnt herself) what if sympolically that's what books did? People were unhappy with them and the people in this story make books sound like a terrible thing and that they deserve to be burned.
katyj- I agree. They probably are unmanned because of the crazy technology! =D
They know how to read for sure. Just because they don't read books that doesn't mean all writing can't exist. There'd still be pamphlets, advertisments and stuff like that everywhere you go.
mitchs-That is an interesting point!! That seems very logical! I wonder why Bradbury has not said anything about the government yet. Maybe he is leaving it up to the reader to form their own opinion.
maddisonm-I think the bombers stand for everything they ignore that could destroy them, like war, and the absence of free thought. Also, every time the bombers go over the people just ignore them. The bombers also fly across whenever a significant event happens to Montag, so they are plot advancers and metaphors.
morgant- The public is generally afraid of firemen because they are almost above the law, they can burn anyone one anything (mostly books) whenever they want to.
So would all the wars be fought with robots? SO it's like who's robots are better wins? thats lame
HUGE DISCUSSION STARTER************* Okay, what do you think Bradbury is trying to say when Montag is publically reading on the Train, yet no one says anything. Does the public really aprove of books and they just don't want to say anything, or do they dissapprove and are too scared to say anything???
katyj- that is a good point. the bombers are lifeless shells raining destruction and needless burning of an excellent source of knowlegde.
mattw-i also agree with you because i pictured clarisse as just a calm girl who everyone sees as king of shy and wierd, and i just don;t see her arguing or fighting.
people keep talking about how people know how to read, but if you remember, when Beatty came to his house he said that there was still comic books.
"He felt he wanted to cry but nothing would happen to his eyes or his mouth"
Do you think this is a literal meaning?
alexf- That is a really good question. I think that you may be right. They may have noticed it, but didn't want to turn him in because they didn't see the problem with books.
mitchl- well she wouldn't have to physically fight, she could be the strategizer.
What exactly did Faber give Montag? What was that green bullet shaped thing? I didn't understand exactly what the invention did.
I wonder if they've started colonizing space, considering how far in the future it is. I think they could also climatize Antartica so it's warm and inhabitable. Do they care about penguins (wildlife)?
katyj- yes Beatty and the other firmen have a handbook, which they need to be able to read in order to understand it.
dawnielle- I don't think so. I think that quote is just saying that he wanted to cry, but he couldn't for some reason.
How do you think this government runs elections? Or are the people so brainwashed that the government just chooses itself?
Alexf, so I wondered that too but I also thought back to when Clarisse said that people don't talk anymore and all that stuff it just made me think that maybe people are too out of the flow or braindead that they didn't notice he was doing something wrong in the first place.
mitchs- It was a seashell radio so that Faber could talk through it to Montag, which scared me cause look what the seashell does to Mildred.
alexf- from what I know of the people that live in this society, they don't notice much and are kind of self-absorbed. If they did see him reading, how would it benefit them to turn him in and if they saw him reading, how would they know it's a book as opposed to a really big manual about the train. They hardly see books outside being burned, how could they recognize one.
Dawniellen~I think yes and no, because he wants to feel emotion and hurt, yet he is expected to be really happy all the time.
macm - still, I think Clarisse is just too "nice" to decide how best to kill people. But then would they be fighting robots?
It's kind of like spy stuff. It lets Faber listen to Montags conversations and Montag can do the same to Faber. That way Faber can tell him how to act with the firemen.
maddisonm - I was wondering about that two. Because they always come into the story and it seems like the lines are worded the exact same way. Also I was thinking that they always seem to fly accross in a time of the book where there is great conflict. I couldn't find it the other two times, but I know that it occured on page 93 when Montag and Faber were arguing about the plan, then they stop and listen to it and mention that it is like the trembling inside of them.
mitch- it was like an earphone, but it was more like a headset, because he could talk to Faber, and Faber could talk back, also Faber could hear what was going on with Montag too.
mattw-i am not sure i fully understand what you are saying about the the seive and the sand, can you please explain more :)
Morgant/ALL- Could the society know what Montag was going through on the train and thats why they didn't say anything. have they all read books and know what it's like to desire to find out what is hidden. Isn't everyone like this? RElating to the banned book discussion, do we desire to know the unknown? Is that why everyone likes going to fortune tellers/people like that???
lesliel- Like they were locked up in their own little pathetic world? Interesting thought. They don't realize that they need civilization...
So when Montag said his wife was dying already, what does that mean exactly? What is she dying from?
mattw- I agree. How can they fight the government or the robots for that matter? The technology is already so powerful...
CateM-I don't understand why it's so hard for him to cry. Do you think no body cries?
Selena, I think that the people votee, but the government so heavily influences who they want them to vote for that it's like they aren't voting at all. But then wouldn't the person in power continuosly make himself leader? do we still have our current gov't?
Do you think this chapter is called "the seive and the sand" because if you put sand into a sieve, the bigger peices get caught and the smaller slip through.
How does this fit into the story?
lesliel- When he says that Mildred is dying , he mans that she is dead inside, and will probably commit suicide soon.
leslie- i think that montag thinks that mildred is dying becaus she is not using her brain.
dawniellen- Maybe it's like in the Uglies series. The specials can't cry, it's physically impossible because of genetic alteations, ut in the end Tally cries even though she's a special. Montag might cry if a thought is powerrful enough.
dawnielle- Maybe that Montag thinks that it is useless to cry when society won't change. He knows the power that technology has over people, and they wouldn't want to change. Look at Mildred for example...
macm - do they really need to change their society? As long as it's working, why should they change it. Dont get me wrong, I'd rather die than live in that society, but still?
mitchs - the green bullet shaped thing was like a small walki- talki so that Faber could talk to Montag could talk to Faber. Also, Faber could hear what the poeple around him were saying at all times. So it was basically a spy network
Kekek-about you other comment, i totally understnd what you are saying, The people of that society are so self absorbed that maybe they just didn't care. But what about when the lady that burned had her neighbor turn her in? Did she just want the show of a burnin house???
whitneys- I agree, form Montag and Faber's reaction it seems like it happens as a daily routine. Maybe it is representing the fight with in the society. Maybe there will be further importance later in the book, maybe not. What do you think?
whitneys- Oh ok. Thanks for clarifying that.
Keke, well oviously the big 'ppieces of sand" are going to be the most important part. perhaps it means people and the big pieces of sand are the important people who challenge the system while everyone else just sinks through.
mattw- When did I say that?
maybe there could already be an underground society that wants to print and read books,and they are all ready to fight with their robots they have created to fight with, and all they need is a leader to organize them, and to tell them what to do.
alexf - could you rephrase that?
macm- Thats what I was thinking to. Like in Specials they have to change themselves because the government won't help them. Montag has to change himself and how he thinks.
catem - good point on the bombers thing!
alexf- the curiosity of the human mind is our downfall. we desire to know everything, no matter what it is. that is why we like to read banned things, is to find why. that is the downfall of mankind is the question "why?" you can tell a three year old that the stove is hot, but they ask "why?" and reach up.....and burn their hand. and in the workspace, if your boss says "hey dont push that button" and you ask "why" and push the button and the power goes out. sure there are different levelsof curiosity, but its still there no matter what.
alexf- Something may have happened between the old woman and the lady that made the lady want to turn her in. Or the lady was a model citizens and thinks of it as her responsiblity to turn her in whereas other people are basically apathetic when it comes to the business of other people.
um... i dont know... I think you said "they need civilization", or something. sorry. 0_o
How quickly do you think this society actually came about? It seems as though it came on fast, because people remember a different time where there was thought. How do you think that a society as dominate as this since it came about so fast? Do you even think that it is a government, or just firemen keeping everyone in check?
New question... It seems as though the rest of the world hates this society. Do you think that the opposers of it could all gather and rebel, or do you think that everyone now lacks that ability due to the fact that there is hardly any interaction?
Last question...Do you think that people are aloud to travel to other parts of the world?
mattw- as it was said before, The peole on the train probably didn't turn Montag in because it had no benefit to them. Turning him in would only cause more work...but if that is true, they the lady that burned with her books said that her neighbor turned her in. Why would her neighbor do that yet the citizens didn't turn montag in. Does that help?
ryanm- That's a great thought! If we just left stuff alone we wouldn't be in danger but we might not be happy either. Curiosity killed the cat after all...
ryanm- if curiosity and the question why are our downfall, then could the government be trying to create a super race where people dont need to tink andthere for have no downfall?
And curiousity obviously killed that woman and all the people who try to save or steal books and die in the process
macm- yes, the only unfortunate thing is, curiosity is always here and will always be.
macm - but the cat has nine lives-- BURN!!! respond to that!
morganT- So I uess the governement has elimanated emotion as well?
Ok i agree with the outside circle. They are talking about emotion and love. I think that they know what it is but they lack it. I think that Montag is starting to re-discover what feelings are. I mean he is starting to discover what happiness is.
catem- People are probably not allowed to travel to other countries, because the rest of the world is probably different than the terrible state the US is in, so if people found out what was actuallly going on, the government would be in trouble. Also, people probably don't want to go anywhere else, they just want to watch TV.
mattw- Maybe it's a genetically altered cat and only has one life. DOUBLE BURN!
alexf - I LIKE YOUR QUESTION! That part really confused me because I was thinking why he wasn't getting arrested for holding the book, and although the people on the train did react, it wasn't the kind of reaction that I would have guessed would have occured. But that might be true that all the people have gond through that. Yet when you think of Mildred who is the average person in this society, she is not at all interested in reading or learning.
Mitchl~I agree I think that there must be some underground society. I mean there clearly are people who disagree with what the society, and they seem pretty intelligent so you think that they would gather.
katyj- a goverment trying to create a race where there was no questions would be elimanating the human race. where ever there is a person...someone is asking why
dawnielle- Well, in a way they do. They don't want people to feel emotions because that could lead to challenging the system, and that's exactly what they don't want to happen. When you feel emotions, you get ideas, and that leads to challenging the system.
I think the people could go other places, but it would be pretty hard (like you need to get permission from the government or something) but that no one really wants to. There wouldn't be much of a point because they are basically completely ignorant of the the rest of the world and when they do know about it, all they know is the negative (like when Montag is talking to Mildred about poor starving people and how their life is so much better)
or they couldn't go at all, like in some countries today.
So why are we talking about cats? Let's not get in trouble again guys.
If it was a genetically altered cat, then it wouldn't be able to be killed. Oh, what now!?!?!
ryanm- I get what you are saying. So we desire to know why things happen, but in society today, do you think that people will go to untold lengths just to find out why? Or, do you think that they are just bored? For example, with the banned books, are people going to go SearCHING for books just to prove that they can, or do they really desire to know what the books say??/
oh, and leslie's right mac. lets just say I won....
but if they arent allowed to ask why in this society, are they human any more?
Morgant- What if they are just trying to rid the society of certain emothions that lead to challenging the system?
dawniellen - I don't think that they have eliminated emotion from the society. They have just elimanted people's opportunity to think, or rather they just make it very difficult. And therefore the society really doesn't feel I guess. Because honestly, if you didn't think about your dog dying, it was just a fact of life that you were told; then the thoughts wouldn't provoke the emotions...Thats just what I think.
alexf- great thought!!! with the banned book project are serching for proof of a point we need to make!
macm- What? I don't really get your question... sorry.
macm- That makes so much sense in the book. That's why the burn books,to prevent people from getting ideas.
The book so far makes it seem as though if people ask why they arnt human any more so I don't know.
katyj- yes i believe the question why is human nature
whitneys- I'm not really saying that they have eliminated all emotions. I'm just saying that yes they have eliminated their thoughts so they don't need to worry about challenging the system.
sorry about that argument guys, back to work for me....
katyj - I think they are humanstill, because they are still like the empty shells of human bodies, even if they don't have feeling...
Morgant- well ceratin emotions may stimulate challening the system more than others. Like if you knew you were being deprived of something, you might challenge the system to gain access to it. But if you are happy, then you don't want to challenge the system so they would want to instill that emotion in the society.
catem- that is an interesting point. Can they travel to other places? Maybe they are told that they don't need to travel to other places, that this is everything they need. Or maybe the people don't have a disire to travel to other places, they don't really care. And also has Clarisse always lived in Montags "part of town"?
Whitneys- You bring up a great point. Mildred is the average person and she doesn't want anythin to do with books. But why then did she automatically want to burn the books. She approves him killing an old lady because she had books. What would the people on the train think? Do they just ingore him beause they don't care, or do they sympathize for him?
So if anyone was listening to the inside circle about crying. Tyler said that Montag cried when he was little. Was there a part that said he cried when he was little because I don't remember a part like that
whitney's right - the more you think about something, the more you feel either happy, sad, or mad.
maybe the people just don't care why stuff happens, or why some people do things that others don't.
ryanm- Yes, i see what you are saying. But before we had a discussion about if banned books should be banned. Do you think that people want to get a banned book to learn or to prove a point?
Maybe books represent freedom. I mean I think that this takes place in America, and I bet that they have heard about one freedom one time or another and are trying to find it. With the fact that they don't know emotions they are now trying to find a place where you can find the inbetween emotions.
To back up what I said, they have things to keep people happy like the car for Mildred to relieve stress.
I'm not trying to sound funny, but it seems like emos took over the world. THey rathere feel pain than nothing at all.
macm- Well that is true, but what I'm trying to say is that they want the people to feel happy. But, it really is a cover up. They aren't learning anything. It kind of relates to material things. One might say, "If I just get this, I will be happy." But, we all know that material things don't makes us completely happy. The government just want certain emotions gone. They don't need to be challenged.
alexf- The people on the train probably didn't even pay attention to Montag, they didn't care. They may have even had sea shells in their ears.
WELL I'M SORRY BUT IT'S TRUE!!!!
So, personally this whole Mildred thing really annoys me. For some reason her character just Frustrates me. I don't care much for Mildred
With emotions and crying that reminds me of the holiday because something happened to her so she does not want to cry any more and she lost the ability because she forced herself for so long not to cry. Do you think that something happened to them, is the influence of others making them not want to have emotions?
morgant- right, that's exactly what I said. Maybe I worded it a bit weird. Sorry.
mitchs- That's a great point. I completly forgot about the seashells. Maybe they were acting like Mildred and just wanted everything/everyone to go away. They probably were listening to seashells so that they could escape. Maybe the fact that Montag was reading a book never crossed their mind,. Great point!
mattw- I was making that anology too, actually.
Emos cut themselves because they want to feel something no matter what it is. The people in the book don't really know how to feel anything emotionally unless it's an extreme so they can result to physical feeling.
Like Ms. Smith is saying, the government doesn't give the people time to wonder about the society. They keep them busy with, once again, material things.
Wow great connection Keke i never thought of that!
Okay. Sorry macm. Maybe I wasn't interpreting things as you meant for them to be interpreted! =D
THANK YOU KEKEK. and mitchl, I see you making your comment, so preemptive strike - youre right not everybody is feeling pain
Alexf~The people on the train don't really have any feelings toward Montag. Like Ms. Smith said they only see the extremes. They only know what they think of him.
Alexf~The people on the train don't really have any feelings toward Montag. Like Ms. Smith said they only see the extremes. They only know what they think of him.
leslie i agree with you completely. Like when mildred was talking about driving and she was like you hit rabbitts and sometimes dogs. that really annoyed me.
morgant- No problem, we both agree on the same thing! :)
catem- Do you think that they know he is a firefighter? Then they wouldn't bother him for sure!
catem- That's a great point. They only really know how to judge him. Do you think that that's what happens in society today?????
It is interesting what the inner circle is talking about. This goes back to the idea of challenging our society.
alexf - ya i guess so. Y ou can't judge someone 'till you've walked in their shoes. that's been said so many times I think everyone gets it.
alexf- I totally agree! If someone looks at a person with a black clothes or something, that's all they see. That person could be a rocket scientist for all they knew.
well not everyone is wanting to feel something in this book b/c mildred was shocked when montag showed her the secret stash of books he has, but she didn't want to feel that way b/c all she wants to do is watch tv or watever the relatives is.
maddisonm- I can't hear the inner circle and type hahaha. What were they saying???
Alexf~I think that our society today is leading ot a society like Montag's in the future. No matter how hard you try, you make a first impression of someone. If they don't have any known feelings, you can't make those mean first impressions. Does that make since?
Yeah, Mildred doesn't want to do anything but watch TV. Good point Mitchl.
macm/mattw----- I agree. I think that people today judge others tooooooooooo quickly. Do you think that judgement plays any role in 451?
macm - I totally gete that. A couple years ago Everybody thought I was a jewish italien on first sight. I dont know why.
The government is handing happiness to the citizens on a platter, but because they didn't have to work for it, it means nothing to them. The government should have remembered the phrase, "Getting there is half the fun."
catem- yes that makes complete sence (not since hahaha) ;)
alexf- i don't think that judgement plays a role in the society. Who would they be judging?
i think that because Mildred just watches tv, she thinks that the tv world is more real than the eal world.
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