Fishbowl with Live Blogging
February 22, 2008
8:25-9:24 am
February 22, 2008
8:25-9:24 am
Julie Lindsay:
Julie is the head of Information Technology at Qatar Academy in Doha.
Will Richardson:
Will is “Learner in Chief” at Connective Learning and the author of the recently released Blogs, Wikis, Podcasts and Other Powerful Web Tools for Classrooms published by Corwin Press. His blog Weblogg-ed.com is dedicated to discussions and reflections on the use of Weblogs, wikis, RSS, audiocasts and other Read/Write Web related technologies in the K-12 realm, technologies that are transforming classrooms around the world. He is a national advisory board member of the George Lucas Foundation. Will lives in New Jersey.
Stephanie Sandifer:
Stephanie describes herself as “an educator with a background in visual art and design.” She is currently employed at a Houston, Texas area high school in an administrative position focused on school improvement, and her personal interest areas related to that include: school size and structure, leadership (including distributed and teacher-leadership), technology integration, experiential learning, and the elimination (or radical revision) of No Child Left Behind.
Kristin Hokanson:
Kristin is a blogger who also happens to be a Classrooms for the Future Coach as well as Teachnology Leader. She is working in King of Prussia, PA where she is committing her time and efforts to creating a constructivist learning experience for her students.
Julie is the head of Information Technology at Qatar Academy in Doha.
Will Richardson:
Will is “Learner in Chief” at Connective Learning and the author of the recently released Blogs, Wikis, Podcasts and Other Powerful Web Tools for Classrooms published by Corwin Press. His blog Weblogg-ed.com is dedicated to discussions and reflections on the use of Weblogs, wikis, RSS, audiocasts and other Read/Write Web related technologies in the K-12 realm, technologies that are transforming classrooms around the world. He is a national advisory board member of the George Lucas Foundation. Will lives in New Jersey.
Stephanie Sandifer:
Stephanie describes herself as “an educator with a background in visual art and design.” She is currently employed at a Houston, Texas area high school in an administrative position focused on school improvement, and her personal interest areas related to that include: school size and structure, leadership (including distributed and teacher-leadership), technology integration, experiential learning, and the elimination (or radical revision) of No Child Left Behind.
Kristin Hokanson:
Kristin is a blogger who also happens to be a Classrooms for the Future Coach as well as Teachnology Leader. She is working in King of Prussia, PA where she is committing her time and efforts to creating a constructivist learning experience for her students.
339 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 201 – 339 of 339@lukez and don't you feel like those math concepts are ones you will remember?
I think the system breaks many kids down with irrelevance.
Liz, my family is like that too. My religion gives my life Meaning, but I definitely think that Meaning comes from other things as well, such as loved ones.
i'm gonna compare this to Ebglish Football (or soccer as most people call it):
The team Newcastle United has no meaning in the English Premier League: they're low in the standings. However, a team like Manchester United, who is in the top 3, has meaning to win: they are so close to winning they have the meaning to try their hardest.
ManU4Life!!!
Will-
I think you can learn without grades if you really want to learn for yourself you wouldn't need grades.
I agree that we need to take everyone's passions into account to prepare for college, and not just the basic subjects. I think that we should have time to actually enjoy life, and integrate these passions so that we find greater meaning in life.
A Whole New Mind is really about a Whole New World that really challenges our traditional thinking about what we can learn and how we learn it.
meant English Premier League... my bad.
I think that Meaning and Play are somewhat assoicated together, I think that a definition of Meaning is just enjoying you and the things oyu do and being proud of it no matter what, I feel like that is the same thing with play. Personally, if I don't make a certain team or something for basketball or didn't do as good as I could've, I don't care I just go out there get better and do it again. Also another part of meaning is doing something for doing it rather than doing it for reards. Relating back to basketball I don't enjoy when people tell me great game or your really good, you played great, etc. I think they are nice comments but if I got crude comments I would still feel the same ay I have a passion for basketball that I can't even descrive I don't care what you tell me but it is Meaningful to me and that I don't care what you say but I am going to go out there and play hard again and again.
Comment re 'getting through High School'....the journey should be the meaning not the destination...??
Hmmm.... Mr. Fisch made a really good point. Why can't life's motivation start at High School?
Maybe it's because of peer pressure. At an older age, people get into so many groups that they have their own personalities. At High School, there are cliques and after school activities and classes. That's not really a varied group. That is why some people don't want to do anything. They don't have enough involvement.
Hmmm.... Mr. Fisch made a really good point. Why can't life's motivation start at High School?
Maybe it's because of peer pressure. At an older age, people get into so many groups that they have their own personalities. At High School, there are cliques and after school activities and classes. That's not really a varied group. That is why some people don't want to do anything. They don't have enough involvement.
It seems like students who are more self-directed are able to find meaning even in classes where the curriculum/instructional methods are the same for everyone.
What about the unmotivated learners? What about students who less self-directed or whose background/family situtation is so dire that they have no interests in anything?
By connecting them to their passions. By not beating those passions out of them and telling them they are irrelevant.
Julie- I don't think there really is a conformity in learning. I think that if you are passionate about something then you should pursue it, and everyone else should also do that. I think conformity is a just a public opinion that is separate from meaning.
But Amanda, We look after those people because it makes us happy to see them happy. When you think about it, everything we do is for ourselves.
will - ya that's totaly true if we didn't have grades I don't think I would really try to learn unless I was learning about my passion
My blogger isn't working for me can other people see this comment?
kristenw---I've heard some people say that when you're going through tough times in your life and are actually pretty sad, these are the times when you learn the most about yourself and garner the most meaning. Like when you're happy, you feel good and everything, but you're just sailing along and aren't really getting anything from it.
Just kidding it works now
Will- okay, they don't FORCE you, but they have a huge influence on why you learn. Some parents want their kids to have good grades to they learn in order to get the good grades. That isn't the case for me. Well, it partially is, but on the other hand ever since I have read this book I have a reason to learn and apply my knowledge in new ways. Parents are very influential too. And kids will learn if they want to get good grades. However, there are some kids that could care less, so they wouldn't learn no matter what.
ok so grades are necessary to get you to learn stuff that you don't necessarily care about...but if you were learning within your passion it would be self directed?
Amy- I think meaning is a right-brained approach to left-brained experiences. School can be very left-brained, learning and taking notes, but by trying to find meaning in what we are doing is using right-brained thinking.
@liap yes I see your comment
amy- being sad often helps you learn the hard way. I definately know that....
Stef-
I do think that people have meaning in thier lives. I think that some people are just more vocal about it. I also think that some kids are just more involved outside of school.
People without motivations are probably hopeless, because they have not been instilled by any experiences. As people grow older, the mind grows less flexible, you have a harder time becoming passionate.
In today's society, is it possible to remain occupied and content without material goods?
@liz...I think I speak for the group....am glad to see that kids in HS still think of their parents as influential ;-)
yes lia we see it.
Grades are... stupid. In my opinion. Anyone can get an A in a class, if they want to. If grades were important to me then I would be a straight A student but I don't see the point of them other then getting into a decent college. I am still learning all of the material without having an A. I am a smart person, and I learn/comprehend at an extremely fast rate. It isn't that I don't care about school, it is just not my top priority because there are other things I'm passionate about and they have nothing to do with school. And I am mad at the school (yes, the physical building, not the people in it) from tearing me away from my passions.
This class is on the leading edge of the shift...didn't you see "Shift Happens???" ;0)
Will, I'd love it if there were no more tests ^_^ It would relieve a lot of the pressure forced on students, and Liz is right, they force grades on students. However, tests encourage kids to learn, and without them, I don't think that students would have the resolve to learn. I think that in order to lessen the hatred towards tests, teachers could try to make them fun, like making them a class test, or turning it into a game of Jeopardy or something
amy - but when people are sad don't they want to become happy and people are always trying to find something that makes them happy
amy- Yes i think that meaning has to do with the right side of the brain. Emotion is the center point of meaning. If you spend your life helping others you have emotions for them and that is your meaning.
will- isn't that a Nissan ad?
maddie- I have meaning from you! I have meaning from all of my friends. haha
aaron-
I couldn't so I thought I'd check
What Mr. Fisch was saying about living life after high school, I think that right now that is how the curriculum is making it come off at this point. I feel like our high school want us to do and be what we want to but with all the requirements to get into a good college to pursue one specific major is crazy, I feel like as we start to get into like our senior year and stuff is when they need to start allowing us to lead our on lives and choose certain majors so maybe we can begin to be drawn towards what means most to us, so we are prepared for when we leave and move on.
brian - I think that you can use all of the senses together. I don't really think that meaning ties all the other senses together. I think that it is just one of the things that you reallly need to have a whole new mind.
Amyw-
Meaning is right brained because there isn't a set of steps to find meaning. It isn't at all as linear or as set as left brain ideas. It is so individualistic and leaves you to find meaning on your own.
Clara-
Thats a good point! I agree now! I guess you really do do everything for yourself. Is that selfishness? Or for happiness?
@kristen, learning within your passion does not mean you are necessarily self-directed, you can still be lazy and avoid learning. Maybe it comes down to 'personality'.
Does anyone in the class think that they can be successful and find meaning in life without going to college?
@meganu
WOW
School can be very left-brained, learning and taking notes, but by trying to find meaning in what we are doing is using right-brained thinking.
So perhaps we should be guided to make meaning...find meaning in the things that we are learning...
I don't think that kids should ONLY learn about what they are passionate about because as we all said, that changes over time
In this class, we can really think outside the box, so to say, and that we can take our conversations in pretty much any way.
okay lia. did you see my ManU vs. Newcastle comment? :)
That whole honors/regular distinction is problematic.
serenal---What happens with grades is that we end up learning and memorizing facts just for the A. Our only motivation is the grade. But if we either had no grades or just stopped focusing on them so much, we'd actually learn for ourselves and try to find meaning in our classrooms. I personally hate how grades seem to dominate school, and determine how we do in life (college, SAT, etc.).
How many of you are "honors" because you are more motivated to get good grades, not necessarily more motivated to learn? (I'm pushing here, I know.)
Amanda-
It does seem like we are all very selfish, but if it's impossible to do anything other than for ourselves, there is no such thing as selfishness and selflessness.
nile- I so agree with you. Meaning might have an individual definition for each person.
@kristin
I agree -- I think there are some things that we all need to learn -- a common knowledge base so to speak... the challenge is finding ways to help students find meaning in that common curriculum.
However -- I don't think it should be as extensive and bloated as current curriucla
kristin -
ya that's what i think because I know that if I was learning about what I want to learn about I wouldn't need grades to push me to learn but like in history, a subject that I do not enjoy at all, I would choose not to learn it at all so the grades push me to have to learn it.
But why aren't they motivated? Are they really not motivated about ANYTHING? Or just not what school has to offer?
I think that it is a little discouraging to kids that want to learn in a class like this but they couldnt pass the test to get in. That has to be frustrating.
Stephanie Sandifer, I think that that is when the school needs to step in. A lot of students and parents think that schools should stay out of their personal lives, but if educators truly care about their students, then they will help encourage students who don't want to learn.
Will---I think that college definitely isn't for everybody; I have some adults in my life that have shown me this. If a person can recognize this and find their passion and meaning without college, and that's the way they discover it and find meaning in their lives, then yes, it's entirely possible.
@julielindsay I don't know if it is personality as much as the "biology" FROM THE BOOK
"studies of our biological constitutrion make it increasingly clear that we are social creatures of meaning, who crave a sense of coherence and purpose"
Will-
i don't think it takes college to find what you are put on this earth to do. It just takes motivition and willingness.
will- I agree with you about the problems with regular and honors classes. I was pretty mad that i only got into honors for this class and i struggled in regular classes. I think that the honors classes are actually easier than regular classes becuase they make you realize so much more.
Will-
I started out in this class because i wanted to get a good grade and I wanted to be able to say that I was in honors english.
However- as the year has gone on my outlook has completly changed. Now, I am here because I am curious, I come everyday because I want to know what we are going to learn. Now I am still motivated but in and entirely different way.
I think that combining honors and regular student is a good idea. If they saw what we were talking about, that they might see another perspective. I also think that they might not have thought of these perspectives before. This might open a new style of learning.
@will, I know Im in honors just because the classes move at a faster pace and people are more motivated, I guess I just like the class enviornment
Will-I think anyone can find meaning somewhere no matter what you want to do but if your dream is to become a rocket scientist and build a rocket to go to the farthest planet, Neptune, then you have to go to college just to learn everything you need to know to do the job. to recap, I think that you don't need to go to college to find meaning but, for certain things, you do need to and it will certainly make it a lot easier.
Kristin Hokanson- I agree. However I think that we should learn with at least a little bit with our passions. I know it would motivate me a lot more to speak up and get more involved if I was doing something that I really was truly enjoying.
In today's society, is it possible to remain occupied and content without material goods?
Will-
I definitely am just an honors student because I have to get good grades. It was drilled into me growing up, so as I grew up, I found that the only reason I'm doing so well is because I feel like I have to.
@will I agree with the honors/ regular...but that is a struggle that all schools face?
Kristin Hokanson-
In biology, we were studying genetics. We spent about a week or two on it, but that is my favorite thing about all of learning. I want to do genetic research when I'm older and study the DNA sequence, cure for cancer, see if we can create new organs for people who's organs are failing. (Not cloning people though, that's just creepy and unmoraled) So I research that at home all the time.
And neuro linguistic programming really interests me as well so I do my own research on the internet to learn about the stuff that I want to learn, in addition to the stuff that I am forced to "learn" (aka catch facts thrown at us and then regurgitate information on a end of the year or unit test!)
So yes I think that if you are passionate about something you will teach it to yourself on your own time. That's what I do anyways because I know that I will learn more that way.
Don't you guys think that some kids would be overwhelmed if they were thrown into this class?
Aaron-
I just looked at it, and I disagree. I think that the fact that Newcastle is rated low gives them more drive to do better for themselves. Manchester is just more comfortable in a higher position, so they lose the meaning of the game.
Louiseb -- important question for you...do you think other kids who may not be honors could experience that shift as well?
@maddief I agree -- if we want to encourage and motivate more learners, then a lot more needs to be done in the way of parent/community outreach & education.
Some parents in some communities just don't know how to help their kids at home or how to help them become more motivated in school because they weren't served well by schools when they were students -- it becomes a bad cycle.
Will- I think that in order to survive in the world today, and make a living, people need a college education. If that college education wasn't needed then, I think that people would find meaning from those raw experiences, instead of from the guided experiences, they would learn more about themselves, and they would take more meaning out of those experiences too.
@alexd yes...shouldn't EVERY student have the opportunity to learn like this
Would LOVE to hear from the kids how this type of learning is different, more motivating than others?
Will-
I think its possible.
If you look at a lot of the famous entrepreneurs many of them don't have college experience or they have dropped out of college. These entrepreneurs followed their passions and found meaning in what they loved without a college education.
I actually do think that we can find meaning in schools, come to think of it. I've had teachers before that have not only taught me the subject, but about life too. In my 7th grade math class I learned SOOOOOOO much about life, and it was a math class! It depends on the teacher. My teacher in the aforementioned math class had many life experiences (she taught poor kids in Brazil and was in to helping people) and so just being around her taught me about life, not just math.
Kristin...but why is that? I really believe that most honors kids are not that much smarter than non honors...they are just more motivated to get good grades.
Nile-
No. I think that as long as they kept an open mind they woul get into this class and then maybe push themselves in the class so that they can do an honors class later.
will- I always want a challenge which is why I want to do honors classes. My parents always tell me that if I'm doing my best then it deosn't matter. I don't know if it is for the learning though. I don't think that I will be able to reflect that much on my learning until I am done with this year. It is so much easier to look back instead of looking at the present. I can analyze things better that way.
Anne...follow up with asking how many of them would be willing not to go to college if they believe that it's not necessary.
Johnb - I think that if everybody could find their passion, then it wouldn't matter if we have material goods. Like it said in Pink's book. Things that dictated whether a person was happy or nto did not include the amount of money (which in my mind translates to material goods.)
will: Life without college is hard to imagine but I believe that Bill Gates didn't go to college. (feel free to correct me if I am wrong) But growing up as I did it thing college is a necessity. My parents would also kill me if I didn't. Going to college is very important to this society!
You can start a job right now, based around whatever your passion is.
Will-
I think that it really depends on both the kid and the class. I consider myself open minded and this class suprised me which dramatically changed my outlook. But if the kid had no interest at all and didn't want to see something different, it wouldn't matter how amazing the class was because that kid would always see it as a waste of time.
ouch lia... i guess but there aren't enough matches left in the season in my opinion for Newcastle to catch up. Macnhester is within sight of the title so they push even harder than before... plus ManU has C.Tevez and C.Ronaldo so they will just beast the other clubs :)
Phew...this is a touchy subject...I think kids do care, but they need to be exposed to global events more to have a deeper understanding! Yes, many parts of the world are isolated, but with communication tools these days there is no excuse for not knowing, and not caring.
I think that in honors classes the students are willing to learn more, and that they care about the class. In the regular classes, many kids think that it is a burden to go to class.
Right. Yet we don't make this an option for our students.
I think that everyone can rise to the expectations....the more that you are expected to achieve, the more you can and when you find meaning and passion in what you are doing...
Aaw, Liz, you give me Meaning, too! ^_^ Anyways, about the inner circle discussion; last year one of my teachers wanted me to join a discussion about whether GT programs should be given to everyone at our school. I said that the setup for GT classes should be in all classes, because it specializes in teaching styles that help all kids learn. Why should only students with good grades have different styles of learning? Why not everyone else, when different learning styles could help students who have difficulty with their grades?
This is Nile, my computer died.
lia-
but wouldn't the transition from regular english to this class be difficult because the way we learn is so much different?
this discussion about not caring......does meaning = knowledge = understanding = caring, who can do the math on this?
chelsea- not only normal kids think it is a burden but there are smarter kids that think it is a burden sometimes too.
chelseas--I guess I'm trying to get to why those kids feel its a burden.
Is money more important than happiness...what is the point of HAVING money if you are not happy if you don't have meaning or purpose to DO something with it
Thoughts?
Alright. I have a story about meaning. I wonder if anyone can respond to it.
When I was in eigth grade, I had a really mean teacher. She thought about things in terms of work and she pushed grammar. Seriously, that type of class is what people would think of when they think of meaningless classes. She yelled at us if we spoke badly, in terms of grammar. It changed me for the worse. If I read a grammar mistake, I cringe. It's creepy. Sure, I learned good writing skills, but I am still scared witless when any of my teachers get mad.
Can you say there was Meaning to put me through that?
louiseb---I agree completely. This class has completely changed my outlook on, well, everything. Last year in English we wrote papers and did vocab and...not much else. When we read a book, we just read black words on a white page, we didn't look for meaning in them. But this class is different from anything I've ever done, and it has changed me. Same with my history class this year. We discuss world events and a lot of other things, and I can't really explain it but it's different from any other history class I've taken.
On that money question...you are going to spend a GREAT DEAL OF MONEY to go to college...
@maddief
Why should only students with good grades have different styles of learning? Why not everyone else, when different learning styles could help students who have difficulty with their grades?
VERY powerful statement...and very true...
amyw-
Not all teachers have all those personal connections with students though. They just lecture and make you take notes. But all adults with great stories give you a taste of meaning, and inspire you to find your own. I guess that applies at school too, they give you lots of facts and you have to learn to pursue on the things your interested in by yourself. If you don't then all you will learn is what every student knows. You have to take charge of your own education.
What if you took that $150,000 or whatever it is and invested it into pursuing your passions? Building a life around that?
To go back to what Mrs. Smith said, I find meaning in what my great-grandfather said: "You can always learn something from someone."
What they're talking about in the inner circle- Is money more important than happiness?
I think that it depends on the person. Gabbi from Desperate Housewives once said, "I've tried poor but happy. Guess what? Not so happy!"
But for other people like Ms. Smith's brother, as long as you have enough money to eat, and you're happy, that's all you need.
will -
are they more motivated to get good grades or are they more motivated to challenge themselves and learn more
John, our society does revolve around material goods. I think that some goods bring happiness and Meaning, but in the end, I think that activities and people bring true Meaning.
Clara-
I guess thats true!
Going off of what Phoebe said in the inner circle I do think it is to hard for some people to truely follow their passions. I think that some people truely want to follow their passions, but the economy prevents us from being able to do that ebcuase we still have to be able to support ourselves.
Going off of what Phoebe said in the inner circle I do think it is to hard for some people to truely follow their passions. I think that some people truely want to follow their passions, but the economy prevents us from being able to do that ebcuase we still have to be able to support ourselves.
Will-
many kids just feel that they have to go to class, and that they don't get anything out of the class. Many of them seem to not care at all, and that they would rather be ditching class to be with their friends.
Happiness can not be pursued, it must ensue, but from what does it ensue?
Isn't pursuing happiness by making money just looking at the end and not the process of getting there?
Has anyone else been encouraged by the adults in their life to get a "good job" so they can make good money and just generally have a "good life?" And not to do something they love because it's not "practical" and won't make them good money? This really frustrates me.
kristenw -- but the question is can they pursue the things that motivate and challenge them in school?
Will-You're right! But won't you, in therory, make more money then you spent to go to college at a job that you supposedly got becasue of your college education?
nile - ya I do think it would take them a while to catch on to the way we learn but eventually it will benefit them.
Like what Mark is saying about garbage men, the people in Venice who steer the gondolas have to train for YEARS and then test to get one of the 200 something positions that there are, and they may not even make it year after year, and when you finally do make it, you only get paid minimum wage. But these men pour their lives into doing this. My question is- Why?
catlina:
Don't knock things until you try them. Football can be the meaning behind the motivation. Teachers are vital but so are football coaches for those who are passionate about football. I agree with Mr. Fisch. Meaning can be found in whatever job. They are all important to those who are passionate.
Liz-
I agree-that is what I meant to say-sorry. Anyone can be unmotivated at times, and they don't want to do anything.
I agree with kristin hokanson... what about the people who CAN'T learn? What about the people who are mentally disabled? Should they be put in a learning system that is PROVEN to be ineffective? Really? I mean, there is a difference between valuing America's intellect and forming an intellectual elite that basically gets the best learning while nobody else does???
see ya's... bells about to ring.
The bell rang. We're done. Thanks everyone.
brianc I spent a ton of money to go to college to be a journalist...then ended up being something totally different.
Well, since time is up, I'd like to thank all the people who came to live blog with us. Sincerely, thanks for taking time out of your day to blog with us.
Well, since time is up, I'd like to thank all the people who came to live blog with us. Sincerely, thanks for taking time out of your day to blog with us.
Well, since time is up, I'd like to thank all the people who came to live blog with us. Sincerely, thanks for taking time out of your day to blog with us.
@amyw--
YES.. I was encouraged to be a "business major" when I went to college...5 years and MANY credits later...I ended up as a teacher...because THAT was my passion!
@amyw...Yes, I was encouraged to teach for a living, rather than pursue music as a career. I have no real regrets ;-)
Enjoyed the conversation with all of you!
Great session everyone!
@amyw @julie -- my parents tried very hard to get me to take business classes or education classes in addition to studying studio art & design -- but never told me I couldn't just major in art (which is what I did)
Several years later I went back to get my K-12 certification (long story) but never regret any of my decisions and loved my parents for supporting my passions.
BYE ALL
Thanks!!!!
MaddieF-
I think that meaning is very different than religion. For a lot of people our age, and I am sure that there are people much older that feel this same way, religion isn't something you get to choose or personalize, rather it is an aspect of your life instilled by religious family values or tradition. While meaning is personal for everyone. Meaning is what you want to get out of life, what you want to dedicate yourself to. I think that not only is there a large difference between the two, but different people have more passion invested in one while others may in the other, adding diversity to the society.
Jose- I think the meaning most definitely changes as you age. How often do you hear about children going on about how they 'need to discover themselves' or they dont feel like they 'get enough out of their job'. You dont. So I think that maturity influences what you want to get out of the way you are living.
Amanda-
I think that some people would be able to learn without grades, however when it comes down to it most people just don't have the motivation or belief in the importance of learning to be able to be successful in a grade-less school environment.
MaddieF-
I think that students with good grades who excel at school are given so many more opportunities than non-honors kids and it isnt fair. What if the only reason that these kids are doing so well is because they are given these opportunities? Just look at this class, without this style of learning none of us would have the same enlightening experience in 9th grade english, however what if everyone in the school had these same opportunities? How would that change the meaning behind this class?
StefO-
I think that there needs to be ONE place in the life of a young person where religion and meaning aren't pounded into their heads. Just watch an hour of television every other ad shows how their product (perfectly designed of course) will add meaning to the things you do. As strongly as I believe this, I think that it is only a matter of time before religion finds it's way into one of the only places where religion isn't allowed.
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