Thursday, September 13, 2007

LOF 7-8

Evil...
After reading the first act of Macbeth as well as the first eightchapters of Golding's Lord of the Flies, what do you see as the role of evil? Where have you seen connections in the emergence of evil in these two works of literature? Can you also draw any parallels to what is going on in our world today? Think deeply here people. Respond and connect with one anothers' ideas.

57 comments:

hannahl said...

Yay, I get to start off the blog! I beleive from the literature that we have been looking at that evil and ambition often go hand in hand. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth is the example of this. She wants so badly for her husband to be king that she sacrifices her kindness and common sense and turns to "the dark side". She allows evil to come to her heart because she thinks it is the only way she can possibly fulfill her amibitions. This is twisted, however evil comes from people who have ambition and believe that they have no choice but to resort to evil even if there really are other options. It is the fact that the other options take a longer time.
This is why there is such a lack of diplomacy these days in the world. Government leaders don't want to wait and wait decades for a peace treaty, they would rather resolve the conflict fastly with force and violence. I consider this evil simply because there are still other ways of resolving the conflicts. In Lord of the Flies, chapter 8, Jack resorts to evil in his heart because he never gets his say. Even though he could confess to Ralph how supressed he feels, he won't because of pride. This pride makes him think that there is no way to go but to become Ralph and the other boys' arch nemesis. Again, the only choice he thinks he has. This raises an interesting question about human nature, are we really as smart as we think we are if our natures allow us to turn against others when we don't have to? Or, should I say, is it a flaw in our society that we want things so fast that we become savage?

BrianC said...

I agree with you, Hannahl. I too believe that ambiton is often one of the causes of evil doings. But I also think that evil can be the after-product of fear. I agree with what Yoda tells Luke in Star Wars 5, "...fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering. This is the path to the Dark Side." I'm not nessesarily saying that this is what happens in LOF and Macbeth, but it still could happen elsewhere. In LOF, I think that it was the increasing savageness of the boys that leads Ralph to become their enemy. As for Lady Macbeth, it could have been what Hannahl said, but it could also be that she was living in Macbeth's shadow and, instead of fear, it could have been the jealousy of Macbeth. So she devised a plan to aquire some power of her own and if she was discovered, at least then Macbeth would lose too. We don't really know her intentions and I hope we find out.

chelseas said...

I agree with brianc and hannahl. I think that the need for power and also ambition is the sole reason for “evilness”. I also agree that it can be a weak person’s sign of fear. Lady Macbeth is one who does not always think before she acts. She is not planning for her future, and what the effects of her actions will be. I think that this is the same in LOF. Jack wants power so badly that he will split up the group so that he can have power. I also think that Lady Macbeth’s actions could have been in spite of jealousy. Because of pride, like hannahl said, many people do things that they might regret. In LOF, the boys do some things out of excitement, as well as fear. These are a few of my thoughts on evil people.

beckyg said...

I agree with hannahl that evil and ambition go hand in hand. When you look at Macbeth, Lady Macbeth wants so badly for Macbeth to become King that she is blond to the possible consequences of her actions. Likewise in LOF, Jack wants power so much that he is willing to seperate himself from the group so that he can have it. He is willing to make it less likely that he survives so that he can be the leader of himself. It parrallels the world today because some people want to have "stuff" so bad that they are willing to sacrifice anything to get it, even though they don't need it. People become corrupt because they want money and stuff and, power. They want to be higher in their company so they can get more money and more stuff.

Tylerg! said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
chelseas said...

I also think that since Jack and Ralph split up the group, that their change of survival is much less now that they are all split up. I also think that this can connect to modern day society. It seems that especially in politics, the other party is watching the other’s every move. They are constantly looking for ways to blame each other for things. There are many instances where a company seems fine from the outside, but it has many flaws that go on internally, that the public never finds out about. Also, peer pressure is another reason why people will be driven to do things that they normally wouldn’t. The original thought of the ideas often sounds good, but people don’t think of the long term consequences, some of the time.

hannahl said...

brianc, I think it is definately true that fear can also strike evilness. I had just forgotten it because it wasn't a major reason in Macbeth or LOF. I do, however, agree with that.

amyw said...

I agree with everyone else who has said that ambition is the role of evil. From what we've been reading I can see that if you want something badly enough (ambition), you will stop at nothing to get it. A desire and thirst for power is often what drives people into evilness, and this is true as well in LOF and Macbeth. Macbeth wants to become king so much that he (and his wife) are willing to kill so he can get this position. His ambition is driving him to kill so he will become powerful and have this high position. In LOF, Jack's desire for power is driving him to evilness and savageness. He alienates himself from Ralph (the leader) and the other boys because of his pride, so he thinks alienation is the only way to go, sadly. Ambition tends to make people get their "blinders" on, so that they think that they have only one choice. Macbeth = murdering the king. Jack = alienation from the other boys. And when people think they only have one choice, this choice usually involves evil.
World leaders tend to resort to evil because they think it's their only option to resolve conflicts. In many countries there is no justice because of this. Like hannahl said, a lack of diplomacy.

morgant said...

I agree with everybody on this aspect, but I also think it is desire. You have to really want it to actually resort to evil. Ambition is like determination. But, you have to want it enough to get it by evil ways. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth wants to have power so bad that she resorts to evil misdoings. Macbeth wants to be king, but not so much as to do evil acts. There is a major difference. In LOF, Jack wants power. He wants to be chief. Ralph acts superior to him (at least he thinks so), so he wants it. He wants to be on top. Then he resorts to "evil." It's not really evil, but he separates the group, and gets his own little tribe. It would be easier if they all worked together. In today's society, there are some things that relate. I agree with chelseas. I agree that peer pressure can definitely influence you to do things you normally wouldn't do. That is one example of that today.

I have a question on LOF. At the end of chapter eight, why is the head of the pig talking to Simon?? I'm really confused. It's not alive. It's dead. It can't talk. I'm just confused on that.

Javonm said...

The biggest link between the two books are the ideas of challenging the system and the links between lady macbeth and Jack. I am seeing a lot of challenging the system in both boks. It relates in both books about challenging a ruler or the govt. of the island or of the country. In lord of the flies Simon and Piggy are beginning to challenge Jack and Raplh's authority. They are beginnign to go against or improvise on what the orders those to give are and are beginning to direct their own paths and make their own decisions. Where is in Macbeth he also challenges thesystem by challenging the natural selection to the throne of scotland and trying to take it all for himself. I think their are good and bad ways to challenge the system though, becuase in the case ofMacbeth killing someone to become heir to the throne doesn't seem like a good way to challengne the sytem and it is more sly, whereas in the case of the island Simon and Piggy are doing what they believe in without putting certain people in harms way.
I am also seeing a big link between lady Macbeth and Jack. They both seem to be power hungry and it is beginning to take over their entire selves where the thing the are after is in the way of everything else they have set out. It begins to take control of both of them and they can't help but to always be talking about it and always be thinking about it even if it is not the most important thing. More and More Characters are beginning to relate.

SerenaL said...

First of all I want to say that I had a great idea of something to post, and then I realized it was from upcoming chapters. So I rewrote this so that anyone who hadn't read ahead wouldn't get mad at me...

I agree with hannahl and everyone else who has posted because it is mostly the same idea, but is evil the right word? It seems more like impatience and pride. It seemed like the second Macbeth heard the prophecy that he would be come king, his thoughts went straight to murder. Lady Macbeth thought murder was the only way as well. Has anyone heard that good things come to those who wait? This is what happens in our world today also. Like Hannah said, if there are two nations in conflict, we don’t say, okay lets talk this out and be mature, they just start shooting each other to let the tough guy win. This is quicker, but why all the violence? Is there any thing better about fighting then compromise? It’s all impatience.

Jack’s situation is sort of different. I think he is just jealous and completely full of himself. He doesn’t agree with Ralph at all, and thinks that if he were leading the group, they would be better off. I can’t really think of any other evil in chapters before eight. The evil is completely released later on…

maddief said...

I agree with Chelseas, that the root of evil is the yearning for power. Human nature causes people to want to be on top, and they're willing to step on the weak in order to achieve these goals. Lady Macbeth is prepared to kill the king, just to become queen, and her ambition causes her to resort to dark and desperated measures;calling on evil spirits. Jack's longing to be chief causes him to hurt his friendship with Ralph, and abandon his civility, resorting to a violent occult of killing and sacrificing to the beast. In Macbeth, the role of evil takes the form of Lady Macbeth, who becomes Macbeth's temptor to murder his cousin. The Lord of the Flies is the evil in everyone's hearts, that is causing the boys to forget all of their human emotions except the power of controlling life and death.

When I think of the evil in today's world, I think of all of the wars that are fought, and what spurs them is the want to dominate and be in control. Even if countries intervene to help out the people there, they're taking out those who are in control, and putting who they want in charge, which in a way is dominating the country itself.

elisabethc said...

There is a lot of evil in Macbeth and the Lord of the Flies. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth pretty much sacrafices herself for demons and the call of evil. She wants so much to become queen that she allows all of this to happen and take over who she really is. Same with Jack. He wants to become the cheif of the boys so he allows evil to come forth to help him do it. He likes to take out a lot of his anger through killing, such as when he kills the sow and places her head on the stick. Also, like a lot of other people said, amibition has driven these people to do these things. The evil has slowly emerged to take over everthing and it is grasping others over time.
In this world there are several examples of people wanting power and then trying to get it through ways of evil, such as Hitler. Somtimes the people don't realize what they are doing until it comes to the end. Evil is something horrible that takes place everywhere, which is actually kind of sad.

josed said...

Well you guys, you met the Lord of The Flies. If you read my first post on LOF 1-3, you'll know the LOF is a reference to the (evil)demon Beezlebub, which strengthens the role of evil. As the LOF himself said, the role of evil is why everything's no go. I also think its role is to be fear: the beast is a part of the boys, and the LOF is Simon projecting his inner evil because he tried to distance himself from it and tried to escape the boys' savagery. If you notice, it told him to be like the others, so it becomes obvious what the LOF is.Jack shares pride, ambition, and ENTITLEMENT with Macbeth: he thinks he's all that and more, just like Macbeth wants to be king no matter what. And some examples of this evil in today's world is the Irani president: you know, the one who wants to "wipe Israel off the map" and is too fatheaded to admit that the Holocaust happened. Just to satiate his radical belief, he denies the mass extermination of 11 million human people just like him. The North Korean President Kim Jong Il, who closes his people from the outside world and makes them worship him like a god, is ALWAYS right in his country, even if he decides what he's just said is wrong. In my home country of Venezuela, the President puts on political shows that show an actor portraying Venezuela's liberator spouting solidarity towards his political party and hatred towards "American Imperialism." He's never wrong either: his "voting" machines take care of that fact. What about ex-Congressman Mark Foley, who preyed on kids like you and me.



My point is that there's a lot of evil in the world and in books, and that it's every person's responsibility to keep their evil in check.

KatherineM said...

I think that people become evil for selfish reasons. People become so obsessed with getting more power, money, etc. that they will do anything, even if it includes doing something evil. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth wants the power and position of being queen so much that she actually wants to be evil, so that the murder of Duncan will take place. In Lord of the Flies, Jack is well on his way to becoming evil. He wants to break up the group and take away Ralph's position as chief. Breaking up the group will cause tension and fighting, which definitely will not be good for them as they try to survive on the island.

There are people in the world today who will do anything for money or power, even if it involves hurting other people and doing evil deeds. I don't think being involved in evil actions is worth it at all, because you can't take that money and power with you when you die. I think it's more important to be happy and have loved ones around you.

macm said...

Well, first of all I disagree with the group in saying that the need for power and ambition are the main routes to evil. I think that is sometimes the case, but others not. In Hamlet, he is dealing with serious amounts of inner turmoil because he is suppossed to kill to avenge his father's death. To me, this is highly reminiscent of the terrorists today. In their mind, they are doing what's right and serving their god by killing themselves and other people. So I think that revenge can lead to evilness too. This can connect to Macbeth because maybe the fact that Duncan has chosen a successor to the throne(Malcolm)will push Macbeth over the edge and give him more reason for murdering Duncan. I will give them this; in LOF the route to evil is definitely blinding ambition. Jack and Ralph are in a power struggle and it's not helping the boy's quality of life. Ultimately, I believe that the route to evil depends on teh situation.

mattf said...

Evil is clearly a theme here, but so is human nature. In both books, the main characters (Macbeth, Lady Macbeth, Jack) as striving for power. They want to be in control and ambition is driving them. Macbeth is being driven by a prophecy that he thinks is true. in Harry Potter, the book says a prophecy is not always correct, it is made correct by people who choose to fulfill it. I think Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are choosing to fulfill their prophecy, even though it might not be necessary. Jack o the other hand, is bloodthirsty and power hungry. He wants things done his way. harry Potter is one parallel with the prophecy, but evil parallels could be with Iran wanting to obtain nuclear weapons. They are power-hungry and being drive by ambition. Although they aren't assassinating anyone to become ruler, they are violating many UN regulations to obtain this power. North Korea is also doing this.

morganw said...

I agree with Maddie - the evil is there in everyone's hearts, it's just a matter of how long and how much they allow to come out. In LOF they immediately use picking on Piggy as a stress-reliever. As things start to fall apart between Jack and Ralph the boys slowly loose their will to fight the evil. They don't loose their ability to, just the will to. They are under the mind set that there is no point to waiting it out for rescue and that if they're going to die there (nobody says it but you can tell they're all thinking it)then there is no point in following rules, helping one-another, or even refraining from killing. They start to relish the chance to kill and spill blood. Even though Macbeth doesn't appear to like killing, he is immune to it because of his extensive battle experience. He is able to push past the truth of murdering Duncan and look at it as just another oponent who met his end in the battle for the throne. He is not so much giving in to the evil as numbing himself to its presence. Lady Macbeth plays a large part in numbing him, but the guilt eventually catches up to her as well. As characters give in to this kind of temptation they dig themselves deeper and deeper into a rut til escape becomes impossible.

People say that violence is the quick way to solve things these days, but what could have been avoided entirely can be turned into decades worth of bloodshed. Diplomatic relations aren't able to be solved peacefully because escape from the rut of human nature prevents it.

stefo said...

I agree/ disagree with maddie and morgan. i agree that there is evil in everyones hearts but I also believe that there is an equal amount of good in there as well. It's just whatever side you let control you. In both Lord of the Flies and Macbeth the main characters are letting their evil side take over. The pig head and the witches are symbolic of everyones evil side and the temptation to let it take over. Jack is blood-thirsty from killing the pigs and as morgan said Macbeth is surrounded by death from battle. Evil surrounds them and plays a big role in their lives. Time and time again in the real world people let their evil side take over, thinking murder is the best way to solve a problem. Like with war. World War 2 with the U.S dropping a nuclear bomb on Japan.

whitneys said...

After reading Lord of the Flies and Macbeth, I have come to realize that the role of evil is almost always born from a lust for power. Jack wants to be chief and so and Macbeth wants to be king. So from this lust for power comes the evil in humans, for their wanting to be King drives Macbeth and Lady Macbeth to murder their King and Kinsmen and causes Jack to completely separate from the group. Jack hasn’t killed anything yet but pigs, yet because of his horrid obsession with killing pigs, how he rejoices with feeling of the blood on his hands, and the measures Macbeth will take to gain power leads me to believe that soon he will be killing more then pigs. And a person is truly evil if they can kill another human being for selfish gain and no other cause then to receive greater domination over other human beings.

There are many parallels that are in the world today and have happened recently in the past. Such as Hitler and the Nazis and how they murdered millions of people to create a perfect race in which they would rule over. Also with American imperialism in Latin America, and how we killed so many innocent native people of the areas we took in order to put them under our control. And finally with this war we are fighting today. It might not be totally in a lust for power, but a lust for everyone to share their same religion that drives terrorist to sacrifice themselves and murder thousands.




What do you guys think about the Lord of the Flies saying that the beast is within the boys? Do you think he is saying that all humans have ambition and are selfish so that these combined could create a beast?

whitneys said...

Morganw- I totally agree with what you said about how that evil that we all carry inside us causes the blood shed and the wars in the world. But are you saying that the evil is killing another person? What do you mean by this evil?

Tylerg! said...

I belive that power corrupts, so absolute power will corrupt absolutely. The boys are learning what they need to survive and Jack is willing to do anythig for power, even be evil toward others. They are all making and breaking friendships for their own benefit.

mitchs said...

In both Macbeth and Lord of the Flies, evil has been used to corrupt the main characters and to create conflict. I agree with the rest of the people on the blog, this evil is usually caused by ambition, but it is also caused by impatience. You can have ambition without being evil. If you aren't patient enough to work hard and earn what you want, then that can lead to evil. Jack and Lady Macbeth are really the people who have become evil, but I guess Macbeth is somewhat evil too. All of these mentioned characters aren't patient enough to wait for power to come to them, so they use evil to try and take it for themselves. Also, the desire for power can be a reason for evil. I guess you could connect this to the world today. You could say any war between countries is like using evil instead of negotiating with each other to solve their problems. They aren't being patient enough to wait for diplomats to agree on a solution, so they declare war and fight it out, kind of like Jack and Ralph are doing right now.

ZachH said...

I believe Evil is a force in our world. I think Evil is created when we have wants. When we want something, Evil is the force that comes over us and drives us to get it.
Evil is evident in both Lord of the Flies and Macbeth. In Macbeth, when Macbeth and Lady Macbeth want to be King and Queen, they both (but esspecially Lady Macbeth) will stop at nothing to ake it so. Evil is driving them to do so.
Simular examples are in Lord of the FLies such as when they hunt for food or need something. They are vicious and driven by Evil.
In our world, i think 9/11 can be an example of Evil. That the group who did it hated America so much they would hi-jack planes, destroy buildings, and kill human beings. They were driven by Evil.

alyssas said...

Well in Macbeth and LOF, evil seems to be playing a large role in the plots of both stories. In Macbeth, I think evil is kind of coming in the form of greed. Since Macbeth heard the witches prophecy, he has been going crazy trying to get ahold of the power of the throne. Lady Macbeth has also shown her greedy, power- hungry side when she pretty much brings evil upon herself to strengthen her as she and Macbeth plot to kill the king. In LOF, I also think evil is coming in the form of greed, for Jack at least. He wants so badly to be the sole authority figure on the island that he breaks his relationship with Ralph and divides the island into two almost separate parts.

I agree with Amy W. when she said that often plotical leaders today can usually tend to lean toward evil because they think that this may be the only way to resolve their conflicts or to get their way.

alyssas said...

Whitney S.- I think that when the Lord of the Flies says that the beast is within the boys, it is a representation of William Golding's thoughts because he believed that if you strip man of all luxury than we would all just be evil. So I think that he is using the Lord of the Flies, to insert some of his beliefs into the plot of the story.

catem said...

Let me start off by answering your question morgant. The pig's head "Lord of the Flies" isn't actually talking to Simon. The conversation that Simon is having with the pig I think is actually supposed to represent the struggle going on inside Simon and most of the other boys on the island. Clearly most the boys aren't really that sane anymore and are now facing the moral desicion between good and evil. The "Lord of the Flies" I think is supposed to be like the devil, or evil, trying to convince Simon that he is worthless and that he shouldn't care for anyone on the island because nobody cares for him. Simon is deeply troubled by this and I think that might be why he goes off alone for periods of time . Evil is taking its toll on Simon and I am not sure how much longer he can last without cracking.

Now let's talk evil. Evil comes in so many forms. I mean it was evil of the terrorists to kill a ton of people, but isn't it also an act of evil to think mean thoughts about your friends. My point is that evil is everywhere in different degrees. Although I don't personally agree I think that the author is trying to point out that a human's natural state is evil. Like maddie and morgan said, there is evil in everyone's hearts. But like stefo said I think a person can limit and control the evil within them. I mean there are three types of people in the world. There are people like Lady Macbeth, who call upon evil and long to have more of it in their heart, there are people like Piggy who try their hardest to resist evil, and then there are people like Simon. People like Simon who want to resist it, and yet can not help but having a conversation with it every once and a while.

DawnielleN said...

I agree with a lot of what Catem said. For Simon, I think evil is in himself. I don't actually believe the pig is talking to him. I think that it's his mind that is creating this evil. With Lady Macbeth it is her pride and the want for power that drives her to be "evil". Like Zachh said, evil starts when we want something so bad that we would do anything for it. Jack is a perfect example of this.

I think that 9/11 shows how that "evil" can take over someone’s life and can cause people to change and become totally different people just like lady Macbeth. The terrorists hated America so much they didn't care who they were hurting, what thy were destroying, or even if they themselves died because that is how much hatred was in them.

I do however think there is a difference between evil and doing what is necessary. For example, I'm sure there are some girls that read the parts of the book about the killing of the pigs and they were maybe freaking out. Even to me I think it's sad that the pigs had to be killed but I can kind of relate that to war. Hannahl said that government leaders don't want to wait and wait decades for a peace treaty; they would rather resolve the conflict fastly with force and violence. I do think that it is important to try to find ways around violence but I also think that waiting for decades and decades is wrong. There has to be a line when you have to consider the safety of who you’re protecting and sometimes that means war in our world. War is a terrible thing but I think that it at times can be necessary.

Now people could interpret this as how Lady Macbeth thinks. "It's necessary to kill if it means my husband and I will have power." But I don't think that War should only be fought on the desire of power. I think it should be for the outcome and safety of who ever someone is defending. This is why Lady Macbeth is how she is, because she doesn't think that there is anything wrong with wanting so much power.

Sometimes I think of similarities between Macbeth and Piggy (strange comparison) because of what Catem said about Piggy trying his hardest to resist the evil just like Macbeth.

melissaz said...

I totally agree with Mitchs on how being impatient is what is really the main cause of this evil. The boys in LOF are getting impatient with each other and more short tempered. Jack even chose to leave. They just want to survive and get rescued. It is also very apparent in Macbeth because both Macbeth and more so Lady Macbeth aren't willing to wait and see where his power takes him, but want to kill the king and take it for themselves. Lady Macbeth is growing so impatient, she wants everything now. They almost sound like kids wanting everything now. I also agree with catem. There is some degree of evil in everyone, and unless we really try our hardest to keep it out of our lives, we can't avoid evil. And there are definitely people who have just allowed the evil to grow inside of them and there are others who have kept a good control on it. It just depends on how a person really takes control of it. I agree with what josed said about how Macbeth and Jack share similar ideas and positions. They both, like said, feel entitled to power and that they need to be the leaders, and they have the ambition and drive to take care of that themselves. And to go along with what many people have said, ambition is a huge part of evil and what causes people to do evil things. Like Hitler, he had an ambition to foster the "perfect" race and he was not going to let anyone outside of that umbrella ruin his ambition. If someone wants something bad enough, like Lady Macbeth, they will do anything to reach that goal. This can be a good thing, but also a bad thing. And I agree with maddief, drawing the connection of evil to the wars being fought every day, including the one we have been included in, the war in Iraq. Evil, evil doings and ambitions are a huge cause for wars today. If people want to come in to power that much, there is not much that can really stop them, and they will cause chaos until they are "happy". But on a happier note, when there was the demolition of the Berlin Wall, that was a great instance where the good really suppressed the evil and it truly changed our world today. Imagine if the world was full of more good than evil, I think there would be so much less heart-ache and our lives along with everyone else’s would be so much better.

maddieh said...

I think that power is a big driving force in evil. In Macbeth, both Lady Macbeth and Macbeth want power which inspires them to plot a murder. In Lord of the Flies, the boys all butt heads because they want to be strong and be in control. Evil has emerged from someone wanting power and the struggle of power. I find it sad how there is so much evil in our world and no one can end it. From genocides to crime, evil is everywhere. Its just interesting that everyone has evil in them but most people can't distinguish between when they are evil and when they aren't.

rsabey said...

I think that the need for power is one of the two falls that almost all people give into in some point in their lifes. The other concept I think many people let take over their minds is pride. The thought that it could never be their fault and that they are always correct. In both LOF and Macbeth the tragidy of it all is that they give in to thier manly unfaithful desires and wishes anf focus on thoese insted of hope and love. Whicch characters do you all think fall for their selfs.

jhall said...

I really like how Morganw put it, that evil is in everyone's life, but whether we choose to display it is our choicde entrierly. Everyone needs a punching bag-maybe a friend to vent ot or even someone like Piggy, who golding portrays as the vulnerable kid oin the block. He is easy to pick on and he won't fight back.

In macbeth, lady Macbeth is the best example of evil. She isn't afraid to let it out and will do whatever it takes her to make Macbeth king. The same type of thing is happening in LOF. jack uses his interior evil to get him to be a type of second chief.

Nevertheless, evil is always present, it is just the way we use it that makes everyone who they are.

alexf said...

I can so far definitely see that the role of evil is playing a HUGE part in Macbeth, but I am still confused with LOF. In Macbeth, obviously the role of evil has a huge impact because Macbeth is forced to choose between killing the king and not living up to the prophesy. In LOF, however, I am having difficulties seeing the evil. I totally understand how CateM said that Lady Macbeth calls upon evil, Piggy tries to resist it, and Simon can’t help but have a conversation with it. I think that that is a GREAT comparison. That totally helped me understand the concept of evil when regarding LOF. (I do not however consider what the boys on the island are doing evil though.) I think that the United States is most like Simon. Although we do not completely avoid evil (Piggy) or call upon it (Lady Macbeth), I do think that we have conversations with it.

Louiseb said...

It seems to me that the need for power is a common evil in Macbeth, The Lord of the Flies, and even modern life. In Macbeth, to be in charge is a necesity for Macbeth and especially Lady Macbeth. THey are willing to kill people in order to be in charge. In The Lord of the Flies, power is also very important. THe boys feel that it is absolutly necessary to have one unquestioned leader and they are willing to do almost anything in order to be that leader. Even in everyday life today, in many places there are many wars and political arguments about which religion is the most powerful.

mitchl. said...

well i do see that in macbeth, there is a definite evil, which is macbeth and his wife plotting to kill the king. And in LOF i think that Jack is only trying to get power there and to become the leader of the whole group of stranded boys instead of the hunting group. i think that later on in the book, Jack will come back, and maybe try to take power again. i also agree with chelseas who said that peer pressure was a very key role in society.

nicolek said...

I think that there can be many causes of evil but one that connects with Lord of the Flies, Macbeth and the mordern world is the desire for pwoer. In Lord of the Flies, there is the competition of being the leader between Jack and Ralph. At first they were friends and started out fine but then the urge to been the leader came over both of them and their evil sides began to show. In Macbeth, him and Lady Macbeth become more evil when they realize that Macbeth can be king. They are willing to kill part of Macbeth's family whom he should be loyal to and love, just to have power and be king. This is also seen in the real world by watch other countries go to war just to show that they are more pwerful. I think that power is one of the main sources that bring out the evil side in people

ryanm said...

I agree with nicolek that the evil is the desire to hold power and be a force in the world. In LOF, both Jack and Ralph desire power. this can only lead to bad things in the future with boys on a small island. In Macbeth, when they think about killing the king, their evil side shows. its because they are willing to betray and kill Duncan. In todays world, the struggle for power is ongoing, with nations competing for the best territory and the best technology. eventually many countries will ally themselves with each other to make themselves more powerful to gain the upper hand in the world.

lesliel said...

Hannah, you obviously have a good point and I agree with you, but I also have to add that I think that the will for power makes that ambition come into play. After all, many wars have been started because people want to have power (or land or revenge or whatever the lame reason may be) over other people. Serenal also has a good point but personally don't you think that impatience and pride are things people would put down under a list of "evilness"? All these things come back together to one big idea which most people call evil.
I've definitely seen connections between the two books because in both books their seems to be a person who is abetting another to do some evil and forget about the possible conciquences. In LOF that figure would be Jack, always trying to persuade Ralph that hunting is more important than the fire and not realizing that if the fire goes out and nobody works to keep it up they will all die on the island. It is unfortunate that in the end Jack ends up seperating from Ralph. I wonder if Macbeth and Lady Macbeth will end up doing this...
In Macbeth, people probably understand that Lady Macbeth is in comparison to Jack who egged on Macbeth to killing Duncan. Ralph unlike Macbeth did not give into this peer pressure.
This subject doesn't remind me of anything today, however, it does make me think of imperialism (those of you who are in honors english might make this connection too). The age of imperialism was all a compitition for power and the U.S. did knock a lot of people down on their way to gaining more land. It seems to always be about power and land that can put the world into such an uproar.

stephenf said...

Evil, a dark side. There has always been evil in society back in Shakespeare's time that he revealed in Macbeth and evil in the future as in LOF. evil in society is the want and humans drive too gain it,money, power, love, which can lead to evil methods of getting these. I think as hannah said ambition is a huge role. Ambition can be both good and bad depending on the ambition.Paple always want more even today world powers strive to be the bigger and better one. Even the common day person has ambitions this are usual godd until they can't control it anymore and it dominates them.they whole mind is bent on having it and it consumes them.

amandah said...

In Macbeth evil consumes Macbeth and Lady Macbeth over their lust to be royality. They become so greedy that they are willing to do anything to get what they want. The same goes for Lord of the Flies Jack wants to be leader and when he can't be he gets angry and seperates from the group. In the world today some examples of evil are theft, murder, and war. Like hannahl said about war there are other ways of resolving conflicts.

maddisonm said...

In both LOF and Macbeth I see the roles of evil to be the need or want for something more. In LOF the boys want power and this brings out a savagery side to them which also brings out this evil side of them where they will do any thing to get that power. In Macbeth there is also that need and want for more power. Even in our society today people will lie, and cheat for power. I agree with alexf that evil is playing a HUGE role in both books. The book Macbeth, so far, is about witches creating chaos and Macbeth and Lady Macbeth having twisted evil minds in killing the king.
As far as evil in our society goes, I think the war in Iraq is a form of evil. We have all these brave soldiers over in Iraq fighting because an evil mind (Sadam Husan) who decided to become dictating the lives of many, so America went in and tried to help those people, and now many have died as a result of his actions.

NickB said...

I'm going to have to disagree with you here Zach; I don’t think evil is want. Want is a natural thing, but it is the want of more that is reasonable that is evil. Think of wanting a glass of water at a diner; you could ask nicely and say please and thank you. Is that evil? In my book evil in this situation would be taking a glass of water and a hamburger without paying and generally being mean to the people inside the diner.

You can relate this to both books because Macbeth wants to be king, while he is already thane of two areas. In LOTF, Jack wants to be leader, even though he is already 2nd in command.

This pattern in which the right hand man tastes the power and eventually finds a way to get that power is caused by one major factor, the lack of humility.

If Jack would have HUMBILY taken his place as Ralph's 2nd hand man, would all of the conflict happened?
If Macbeth would have taken the title of Thane of Cawdor with as much humility as his other title and actually meant what he said to Duncan about "accepting this title with humility", he may have eventually became king without foul play.
If Bush would have been humble enough to accept the UN's opinion on the plan for the war on Terrorism, we wouldn't still be in a war with Iraq.

Maybe I'm wrong and we went into Iraq for the good of the people and because they were threatening the safety of the US (STRONG TIE TO THE END OF FERINHIGHT 451!!!!) but weren't those our reasons for going into the Philippines and Cuba?

kristinah said...

I believe that evil often comes from a want for power. Evil playes a huge role of the corrupter and destoyer of good things in both of these books and in real life. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth's Evil leads to the killing of Duncan which can further lead to the killing of more people just for the power of the throne. In LOF, Jack had a very intense want for power so he decided to turn evil and seperate from the group to rule his own tribe. He also seems to be the symbol for ultimate savageness/evil through his tribes and his constant thirst for blood.
I also agree with what hannah said about war, there are other ways to solve it but we usually don't have the patients to wait for something like a piece treaty. In our world today there is constant evil. Evil in cheating, lying, stealing, and much more. People don't necessarily have to turn evil just to get the power that they want. If their intentions are good and they have the patients and self control to wait or get what they want in the right way then they don't need to use evil to get what they want.

aaronw said...

Power is really evil here. And I also believe that the stupid pig chases are evil too. Other people might not agree with me and say that it's only for food. But the fact that they get so blood-lusty over a pig shows how savage they could get, not too mention the fact that they want to poke a littlun to death just to re-enact it!!!
I agrre with Nickb that people have to be humble because humbleness can pretty much ease any problem, such as if Macbeth would have said "oh cool, i'm thane of 2 counties and will be King some day, so i'll keep this title for a while".
i have two word for you, Macbeth:
DELAYED GRATITUDE!!!

phoebef said...

Evil is presant in every human on this earth. I agree strongly with Goldings statement that, if we are stripped of luxury we become evil. Evil develops from the mindset of survival of the fittest. It is, and has always been, our instinct to want the best in every aspect. If someone posses what we desire, then the evil emerges. often time this evil is just an undertone, and hardly noticeable, but it is still there. It can take the form of jealosy as we see with jack in lord of the flies, or self-richeousness as we see in Macbeth. It can also take the form of vainity, lust, or any of the 7 deadly sins.

MollyS said...

I think evil is here to arise conflict, and to keep life having a purpose. Without conflict in life, what would be our purpose? what would be our reason for living? We need something to like all of the human race together, we need something to fight. In LOF and Macbeth the evil comes out of the characrers, becuase it had been there the whole time, just bidding it's time untill it would come out. I think the evils of the world are being ignored by our country at the moment. In Sudan tons of people are being murdered daily, and our country just turns their heads.

ashleyf said...

Hannahl, i agree with so much that you said, its ridiculous. There really is a very fine line between good and evil. What one person sees as evil may be good to someone else. Its been this way for years. Like when conservitive people said rock n roll was "devils music" while more liberal people saw it as the best thing to have ever hit earth...which it is. Becuase people are so close-minded, many jsut want to resolve conflicts the fastest way possible. Politics for example, do that by declaring war instead of trying to make peace because war is faster...and more devistating.

Lady Macbeth is not jsut evil but also really weird. But i like what you said jhall, she is considered evil becuase she shows it to the world....more like to Macbeth, but you see what i mean. Everyone thinks things that seem really evil, but if you dont act upon these sort of thoughts, then that makes you the better person.

I truly dont see a whole lot of evil in Lord of the Flies. Maybe I'm missing something big, but many people have said that Jack displays a lot of evil, but i just think that he feels there is no way they are goign to get rescued and sees this as an experience rather than a tragedy. He jsut wants to hang out and be a guy, while Ralph wants something different. Though i must say the whole pig head on a stick was really sick and messed up. Yet even though he is becomeing "savage" and going backwards on the eveloutionary scale, so are thier surroundings. We are all civil in our little suburban neighborhoods becuase that is the culture of where we live. But these boys are now living in the wild, sticking your pinky up while sipping your imported tea only helps with survival in the proper English world. Hunting and acting like animals is making them more one with the earth, so i dont see it as total evil. Now, i do know some of the events that will happen later on, and yes, evil will be huge roles in everyone soon.

alexd said...

Sadly I think evil exists in all parts of the world today. I think that every person in the entire world has some evil in them. It just depends how much is in them. And I think that this also ties into our “phony faces” blog because some people may be very evil and never show it to anyone (like Lady Macbeth). In LOF I don’t think there is a lot of necessarily evil people. But I think the evil in the boys is showing more. This evil is coming out due to the desperate and panicky circumstance they face.

mattw said...

I agree with alexd, because the boys in LOF don't seem evil so much as ignorant and stubborn. If any of them were evil, I'd say it was Jack, but I can't relate him directly to any character in Macbeth, because he doesn't try to hide his dark intent. I don't actually think that everybody has evil in them, at least not early in life. Older people try to influence them, or even don't try and do all the same. Small children look up to older people. I've heard that some foreign countries teach their students their countries history from a positive point of view, instead of the whole truth, and I think either Jack or Ralph will do the same to the "littluns". The excerpt when the Lord of the Flies appears was confusing, but I think that it is actually the most evil thing on the island, and I can't tell if Simon is just insane or he's just imagining the sow's head talking to him.

clarao said...

I agree with mattw. The boys are not necessarily evil, just in an uncomfortable situation. No one seems to acting like themselves, so I think "evil" depends a lot on circumstance. It's the same in Macbeth. He always seemed like a good person, and never really wants to kill King Duncan, but he didn't want to disagree with his wife. He doesn't want to lose her.

amyw said...

I agree with clarao that no one in the works of literature is actually evil. The right situation, if it's bad enough, can make anyone evil, like how the boys are stuck on an island with no sight of rescue. Also, Macbeth is so desperate (or his wife is) to become king that he has become evil.

Selenam said...

I think that ambition has a lot to do with evilness. Jack wants to be recognized in a position of power and is jealous of Piggy and the relationship he shares with Jack. The main things that I think lead to evil are ambition, arrogance, and greed.
The boys are all scared of the beast in the dark but in the daytime the beast kind of fades away in their minds and they roll rocks into the ocean instead of looking for it. I think the relationship between the day and night holds a lot of symbolism. What does it symbolize?

Liap said...

The role of evil increases as each story goes on. In Macbeth the major evil is inside of Macbeth and the decisions he makes, or thinks about making. Lady Macbeth also symbolizes evil and temptation. Before Macbeth told her about the prophecy, he probably wouldn’t have acted on his thoughts to kill the king. But when he tells his wife she starts to push the idea on him so much that he ended up doing what he knew was wrong. In LOF, the boys are starting to hate each other, and they are starting to go mad, like when Simon was talking to the pig. The evil is showing itself primarily through Jack, because all that we can see now are his survival instincts, and his hatred towards some of the other boys. I think he’s going to start killing people, if its for meat or if he’s just insane.

Ryad said...

In both the LOTF and Macbeth ambition is the role of evil.
In LOTF Jack is want to be the cheif so badly that he leaves the group so that he can be incharge. In Macbeth, Macbeth kills to be king.
They both are ambitious and this is driving them to do things that are not right.
Macbeth has Lady Macbeth to push him but who does Jack have?

josed said...

Whitneys, American Imperialism is a propaganda statement by the Venezuelan president, not something that's happening right now or that ever really happened. I think that the beast is saying that the evil is within each of the boys and that it can most easily come out when there is no luxury. Basically it answers no to the question of "can a beggar give?"

Laurenc said...

I see the role of evil as those who are blinded by self desires. Jack in LOF wants to do things his way and doesn't like following others so he turns against everyone. In Macbeth, Lady Macbeth wants her husband to be King so badly that see persuades him to kill someone he used to be loyal too. This makes me think about how it seems to be human nature to be evil. As a whole race our history is full of war and bloody disputes for power or pride.

kristenw said...

I definately agree with Hannah L. about having the need for greatness. This reflects in both stories with Jack, Ralph, Macbeth and Lady Macbeth. This reflects to the modern world because somepeople will do just about anything to be great and be noticed.